New Orleans Police Problem and the Martial Arts, Part Two

DannyinJapan

DannyinJapan

Joined
Oct 9, 2003
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This time a man was surrounded by a dozen police officers and apparently had a 2.75 inch knife in his hand.
There was, it seems, nothing they could do but shoot him almost a dozen times.



"Police spokesman Sgt. David Adams defended the response, saying at least one officer's life was in danger just before the barrage of gunfire. "You have a subject who's lunging at them with a knife ... swinging wildly at them," Adams said. "They had no other choice but to resort to lethal force." Adams would not say how many officers fired on the man, but confirmed that 10 shell casings were found on the ground.."
 
Why is that a problem? If someone came at me with a knife I'd shoot them too, quite possibly 10 times as well. When attacked, you shoot until the threat stops. Quite often that takes more than a few rounds, despite what you see in Hollywood.
 
I wasn't there and don't want to second guess the LEO's involved.

It does seem like in a perfect world we might be able to do something differently in cases like this....:confused: How's that for a worthless reply:o
 
It just seems to me that what unarmed Japanese police are required to do ought to be something that American police have the capacity to do.
Over here they have these big Y-shaped poles they use to hold armed suspects against a wall or something like that.
 
DannyinJapan said:
It just seems to me that what unarmed Japanese police are required to do ought to be something that American police have the capacity to do.
Over here they have these big Y-shaped poles they use to hold armed suspects against a wall or something like that.
Click to expand...

I agree with you there, Danny. However, I have seen the video of the two japanese police officers confronting someone who then turns on them with a baseball bat. The two officers ran for their lives. I know, two cops does not the police force make.

Isn't New Orleans one of those places where the cops are known for their head knocking? I don't want to generalize or make snap judgements about the NO police. They have a tough job in a tough city, but I don't think it's a far fetched idea that the police that would beat up a 64 year old guy for giving them some lip (drunken or not) would use lethal force on a lunatic waving a knife around.
It was only a 3" blade, but we all know that it really doesn't take anymore than 2" to cause massive wounds even in the hands of someone unskilled with a knife. I guess if I gave the cops the benefit of the doubt I would say they did the right thing. The guy just robbed someone at knife point, then lunged at a cop while he was surrounded. I'm not a cop, nor am I probably cop material, but you're damn right I'd used lethal force if it were authorized when a crazy came at me with a knife.
I don't know what the answer is to this. Does anyone think that a tazer would have been effective? I heard they used pepper spray, but I don't recall a tazer being used.

Jake
 
I would be one of the first to say that if someone is attacked, then deadly force may be necessary.

But, in my opinion; anyone trained as a professional law officer, they should be trained on how to subdue a person. To me, one of the underlying principles should be that an officer is there to protect the citizens, even if it from themselves. If they are not trained to handle an out of control person with a knife, then stay away, let those trained do it.

Also, there are pepper sprays, tazers and even tranquilizer darts that will work. Even a net or some sort of sleeping gas. Plus, if I were a street officer, you better believe I would be an expert in several martial arts discplines. I would sure want to know how to protect myself from a knife attack and know how to subdue someone.

I do believe that there are circumstances where there is not choice and whatever needs done should be done. Even if a police sniper is required, so be it. But I hate it when I hear someone is hurt or killed by a policeman when his duty should also be to protect, even the criminal.

Not many years ago, an officer was chasing a known hood. The policeman was in his car, the young man on a 4 wheeler. During the chase, the policeman ran over the boy and killed him. The policeman should have been trained on how to drive a car in a chase and trained how to call for assistance and how not to hurt the criminal unless no other option was available. Yes, the kid was a criminal and needed arrested, but not killed by someone who was supposed to be a professional.

If an officer can't pass the physical test and perform some form of martial arts, then why would he or she be on the street. Maybe there could be a special team that would come into a situation like that. Also, why no one shot in the thigh or hand? With more than one person shooting, isn't that endangering the public.

I have not seen the video clip, but this is just my opinion in general.

Wanted; Schrade Spitfire... will trade or buy "tahenson@juno.com".

:jerkit:
 
"suicide by cop" is a very real and very difficult idea for me to grasp, but it's occuring more and more often. I just figure if he/she can't find the strength to cut one's own throat it must be easier to threaten and antagonize officers into taking you out of your misery. I'm not saying this is the case. It's awfully complicated these days figuring motives out there.
 
Yes, this was unfortunate. Maybe if they'd had Tasers everybody would still be alive today. But they didn't. Bottom line is the guy should have dropped his weapon and laid down on the ground when he was ordered to do so.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people are willing to demand that an underpaid civil servant perform difficult and deadly tasks that they are unwilling and incapable of doing themselves.

The last time I looked, "dying at the hands of a knife-wielding lunatic" was nowhere in the job description. I'm a whole lot happier for the wives and children of the officers who safely came home from work that day, alive and intact, than I am sad for the decedent's.
 
Linky to story pertaining to New Orleans.

Good!:thumbup: Another thief taken off the street.:thumbup: :D The man evidently had a long record. At least the people of Louisiana won't have to feed the habitual criminal for years and spend all the money on trials and appeals like is done with the ones they capture.
The ignorant sumbeetch had a choice, he could'a dropped the knife.:rolleyes:

Personally I think the criminals are coddled way too much and I firmly believe all the sheriffs in the country should take a lesson from Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County in Arizona. Linky about Sheriff Joe Arpaio.
Linky to the Sherrif's Home Page.

Keep the criminal element locked up in a tent city and feed 'em sometimes slightly green baloney. If they do the crime then they shouldn't bitch about doing the time.:D :cool: :thumbup:
 
i've had to disarm an unruly drunk twice my size who was attacking someone in a mall, i used a night stick but if he'd a pulled a knife i'd have shot him without any qualms, no stab vests back then.

(i'd just calmed everything down when mall security guy arrives with his pepper spray & starts spraying everyone. including me, & i was in full uniform, badge, stick, S&W mod19 & all, i was not amused, tho perp got most of the spray - turns out security guy had just came in from parking lot where he'd been knifed by two teenagers - he was a bit on edge. the pepper spray had not kept him from being stabbed, luckily only in the left arm. interesting night that)
 
yup empty all the state hospitals of schizophrenics, make public announcements to the effect that if you have a family member who is psychotic he/she will now be seeing LEO for their troubles and turn the hospitals into condo units.

Also dont get taken by the police because some ape mis-identified you (as had happened to me as a teen for looking like a burglary suspect) just eat the green bologna and shut the f**k up. You have no more rights in this country, unless that is you can afford them.

Just watch it all of you. We're monitoring your phones right now.

Security is the growth job sector of the millenium.

God bless you Ronald Reagan - a two bit actor who folks actually thought of as a western hero who put the psychos out in the street and later claimed that it was their preference.

seems like what we have here is a failure to communicate...
 
There is no second guessing here. The cops were completely in the right.

As has been demonstrated time and again, both in reality and in training, a man with a knife can close a considerable amount of distance very quickly if he chooses to. A defender may not have much time to take action and the action may not work in the first place.

It would be nice to have a 100% reliable less than lethal option that is easy to use, inexpensive to purchase, and can be issued to every LEO on the streets. Unfortunately, we're still working on finding one that's simply 100% reliable, never mind the other stuff. Even firearms aren't 100% reliable. (In fact, they're far from it, which brings me to my next point.)

According to Yvsa's link, three LEO's fired a total of nine shots, averaging three shots per shooter. I don't personally consider this excessive given the facts at hand. If it turns out later that he was shot once in the head, dropped the knife, and was shot eight more times on the ground...well, that would be a different story. I have a feeling that that's not what happened.

The individual had already reacted violently before the encounter (assaulting a clerk), produced a knife when confronted, and lunged at an LEO with it. He had the capability (a knife), the opportunity (close proximity), and the intent. (He attacked.) His prior history is not relevant.

Would any of our resident FMA practitioners care to comment on barehanded defense against a knife? From what I understand, it's a low percentage situation.
 
yet so many viscious dogs are controlled with a stick and a loop of wire. The doggies who had mauled and killed a woman and tasted lots of human blood in San Francisco were led away on a pole and a loop of wire. These dogs were not lightweghts either.

How the hell does a police officer let a man with a little knife close enough that the perp can lunge and make contact. Were they wearing leather? I never saw so much leather in one place if a guy was waving a knife in Jersey City or NYC.

In any given January,on my way to work if a guy was shirtless and waving a cleaver was on one side of 9th ave it signalled everyone except the tourists to cross the street and let the police do their jobs.

But guns were made to be fired and ammo piles up if not used.

I wish I could express myself better but the meds are wearing off.

Anyone think Milke Tyson wasn't off his meds when he bit off a piece of ear? But when he's medicated he want's a tea party after the fight. It's bipolar disorder and all of his handlers are aware of it. On one playing field you get paid millions for it. On another you get shot worse than a dog and the folks cheer, do a wave, and download the video. Strange
 
The guy was trying to stab a cop with a knife. I dont really care about how bad his dad treated him when he was young, or how the other kids bullied him at school or that he forgot to take his meds. That is all a totally moot point when you have a man trying to stab you with a knife. Sure, itd be great if the cops found a way to subdue him without shooting him, but theres way too many factors to judge. Cops dont LIKE shooting people, its a very disturbing event. Maybe I am just numb at this point, but when i saw this story, the last thing on my mind was "what a shame....a knife weilding guy trying to slice up some cops got shot"....
 
TikTock said:
The guy was trying to stab a cop with a knife. I dont really care about how bad his dad treated him when he was young, or how the other kids bullied him at school or that he forgot to take his meds. That is all a totally moot point when you have a man trying to stab you with a knife. Sure, itd be great if the cops found a way to subdue him without shooting him, but theres way too many factors to judge. Cops dont LIKE shooting people, its a very disturbing event. Maybe I am just numb at this point, but when i saw this story, the last thing on my mind was "what a shame....a knife weilding guy trying to slice up some cops got shot"....
Click to expand...

Agreed. It doesn't matter if the guy was off his meds or brainwashed by aliens. He tried to stab a cop and got shot. Mental illness is a sad affair, but not grounds to try and subdue him in such a way that puts a one of public service in harm's way. Anyone that works in the clinical psychology field will tell you that there are numerous disorders and conditions that when controlled by medication a person is fine as wine, but when they get off the meds they are a raving danger to themselves and others. We can't babysit all the dangerous people out there. Personal accountability has to play in here somewhere. There are many many people that need treatment, need constant care, need to be kept under lock and key. There are many more that need to stay ontop of thier medication. I, for one, am not going shell out tax money to keep an eye on every potential dangerous person out there because they have something in or boarding on something from the psychological DSM IV book. Guess what, we ALL have SOME boardline mental issues according to that book. I'm sure munk could tell you that from his work in the field. I studied some of this stuff in college, and my wife carries a copy with her to work everyday.
The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what was the guys "deal". What matters is if lethal force was justified. In this situation, yes it was. The guy was not jumping up and down waving his fists. He was not swinging a roll of wrapping paper around his head. He was wielding a deadly weapon, the cops made a judgement call that he was a danger, and now he is dead.

Jake
 
"This time a man was surrounded by a dozen police officers and apparently had a 2.75 inch knife in his hand. There was, it seems, nothing they could do but shoot him almost a dozen times.
"Police spokesman Sgt. David Adams defended the response, saying at least one officer's life was in danger just before the barrage of gunfire. "You have a subject who's lunging at them with a knife ... swinging wildly at them," Adams said. "They had no other choice but to resort to lethal force." Adams would not say how many officers fired on the man, but confirmed that 10 shell casings were found on the ground.."

BTTT

Was it the endangered cop who unloaded? Was it "suicide by cop"? How are cops trained to deal with this? Drag it out till everyone on the force is there and then open fire? I ask cause I've considered it. How would a dozen ghurkas handle a guy with a three inch knife. Would they duck a swing and brain the guy with the spine of a khuk? Or would they carry out an execution?

And as far as it goes, I can't get a carry license in NJ or carry a khuk under my coat to fight off the bad guys. And yes I desperately want to have some kind of advantage like that. But I could get shot 42 times for reaching for my wallet if I'm unlucky. Of course the cops would all agree that's a shame when that happens.

Gary
 
fredricktoo said:
...I can't get a carry license in NJ or carry a khuk under my coat to fight off the bad guys. And yes I desperately want to have some kind of advantage like that.
Click to expand...

Why? I thought NJ was going to be one of the safest states in the union due to its prohibitive weapon laws. :D
 
fredricktoo said:
yet so many viscious dogs are controlled with a stick and a loop of wire. The doggies who had mauled and killed a woman and tasted lots of human blood in San Francisco were led away on a pole and a loop of wire. These dogs were not lightweghts either.
Click to expand...

No, they weren't. They also lacked opposable thumbs, hands, and intellect. I suspect that this wouldn't work as well on a human.

fredricktoo said:
How the hell does a police officer let a man with a little knife close enough that the perp can lunge and make contact. Were they wearing leather? I never saw so much leather in one place if a guy was waving a knife in Jersey City or NYC.
Click to expand...

We would need to know more facts before we could reasonably discuss that. If I had to guess, they were attempting to contain him. (He'd already demonstrated a willingness to attack strangers, albeit without the knife.) This would explain why there were so many LEO's on scene.

I do understand the point that you're trying to make here, but we must understand that for the officers in question, you can't just cross the street or pretend it's not there. They were forced to confront the man - that's what they're paid to do.

If there is a tragedy here, it's that the suspect may not have been in his right mind when he did this. Had someone been killed by this man, the fact that he probably wasn't in his right mind wouldn't bring them back to life afterwards. (If someone had been killed by him, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place.)
 
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