New Orleans Police Problem and the Martial Arts, Part Two

Andrew, you can believe whatever you like, but the facts of the matter are that:

- a moving hand or arm at 40 feet is a VERY difficult target to hit with a pistol. Much more so when you are in fear for your life and those of the citizens around you.

- Even if a person is hit in the hand, or arm, or even both legs, it is entirely possible for him or her to continue to attack, ESPECIALLY when under the influence of drugs/alcohol/adrenaline. A police officer in New York recently ran two blocks and apprehended a suspect after being shot in the heart with a 9mm. He later died, but he was capable of running and fighting for quite some time before he gave up. How about numerous accounts of soldiers on the battlefield who continued to fight when hit by mortars and grenades? A little handgun bullet is nothing compared to either of those weapons!

- Most policemen aren't very good marksmen. The average beat cop only needs to qualify with his or her weapon once a year, and many don't even practice in between.

- Now, I will agree that nine officers most probably could have subdued the man without shooting him. However, such a coordinated effort would take a bit of time and planning, while from this account it appears that they weren't on the scene long before he became violent. As munk said, this was not the ideal outcome by any stretch of the imagination, but neither was it an unjustified shooting. If you attack an armed man with lethal force, do not be surprised if he responds in kind. Don't blame him for doing so either.

Again, you can believe whatever you like, but you appear to have obtained most of your information from action movies. If you do a bit of research into the actual effectiveness of handgun calibers and the difficulty of hitting a small, moving target at twenty or more feet, you may find that it's not nearly as easy as it appears on TV. I'm not saying that to insult you, but it appears that you are badly misinformed with little or no practical experience.

fredericktoo, you would do well to take one of the most senior and respected moderators of this board very seriously. He said nothing remotely out of line, whereas you have been insulting and dismissive to others throughout this entire thread. That's a very poor way to start out here.
 
munk said:
DIJ, I never thought of you as conservative or liberal, but I do think of you as randomly weird...
Click to expand...

It's sort of like working hard at a job for years, doing extra hours and such. Then one day someone else gets the promotion. :mad:


;) :rolleyes: :) :D

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
 
fredricktoo said:
But I shall take a few weeks off here, cool off and consider whether I should just read the Cantina and not participate, or participate weighing in only on less explosive subjects.
Click to expand...

That might be a good idea. We value all the angles here as you can see from the gammet of views we amass in a given subject. However, the only thing that the Cantina requires is that we treat one another in a courteous manner. We debate the topics here in such a fashion that at the end of the day we can shake hands and knock back a couple of rounds. We really value the new guys bringing new stuff to the table. That's how we all learn, but as a community we kindly ask that all flame wars, profanity, and trolling behavior to be checked at the door. I like to refer to such things as "muddy boots". We all have muddy boots from time to time. We just need to take them off before we come into the cantina as this is Uncle Bill's House, and we were left as the caretakers of such.
Thanks:)

Jake
 
Yvsa said:
all the sheriffs in the country should take a lesson from Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County in Arizona.
Click to expand...

I like this sherrif Arpaio, and definatly think every criminal should find themselves in the same situation that he would put them in. And this is coming from someone who has actually been in jail (in my wilder days, I was doing 110mph in a 65mph zone on I-95 through Virginia. I got three days. :( ) and seen that you get treated better there than you do in basic training. I say it's time for a crackdown.
 
Andrew Taylor said:
I saw the video on CBC and although I have never seen a person shot in real life, I can't believe that if someone shoots you in the hand or arm, you can still hold a knife and that if someone shoots you in both legs you can still walk. I also can't believe that New Orleans finest aren't good enough marksmen to hit what they aim at at 40 feet. I also can't believe that 9 officers with pepper spray and batons could not encircle and subdue one man with a tiny knife. No-one has mentioned he was black. He was one man with a knife, not two armed gangs spraying bullets with wild abandon as we had in Toronto the other day. Those perps got away leaving a teenage girl bystander dead.
Click to expand...

First off, youve obviously had little experience with trying to hit a 4-5 inch wide moving target at 40 feet with a pistol in the heat of the moment. Not easy, and even if you had the oppurtunity, woudl you, as a cop, really want to risk putting that .45 slug in some 5 year old's head 1/2 mile down the street when you miss?

The fact that he was black means nothing. His knife was metal, which erases his skin color. Do you really, deep down in your heart think that if a white crazy guy with a knife was doing the same thing, that they'd have taken him out for drinks rather than shoot him?

One man with a knife is plenty enough to end your life, a cop's life, or the life of some innocent bystander who this guy decides to point his agression at next.

I just dont feel too badly at all. On any front. If i take a knife and try to slash or stab a cop who is pointing a gun at me, I hereby waive my right to anything but a bullet. If that cop wants to risk HIS life and try to subdue me some other way, i am being done a favor. No one owed this guy a favor.

I think people need to step off their outrage pedestals and we need to reinstate some even MINOR sense of responsibility for one's actions.

I may be a cold bastid but personally, i feel this guy can rot and i'm not going to lose a wink of sleep..in fact, i feel a little bit safer.
 
fredricktoo said:
But I shall take a few weeks off here, cool off and consider whether I should just read the Cantina and not participate, or participate weighing in only on less explosive subjects.
Click to expand...

I think this is an excellent idea before fredricktoo finds himself unable to post on BFC at all. fredricktoo has already said he was going to leave if a certain post wasn't changed on another BFC forum and it wasn't yet fredricktoo is still here.
Definitely trollish behavior and I've had about enough.

Also for your information fredricktoo, Esav was once a very respected moderator as well and you have no right to talk to him in that manner.:mad: Consider yourself warned.
 
According to the self-defense training that I had several years ago, it is easier to disarm a pistol carrying person if he or she is within your reach than it is to disarm a knife wielding person. I suspect that this was the logic behind the police action.
 
I am a police officer for the Dept of the Army Police Ft Leavenworth, Kansas, that being said a knife is a lot deadlier than a pistol at close range. And as one who has been in a sitioation with a knife wielding suspect who was off her meds if she had not put down the large butcher knife she had I would have shot her. No if ands or butts about it. If you haven't been in that situation don't second guess the police officers. I worked with NOPD on numerous ocasions when I was active duty Navy and stationed in the area woking law enforcement. If there had been another option they would have taken it. For the record they did use pepper spray and it was ineffective.


James
 
hdwrlover said:
Any fool who draws any weapon on a cop is asking to be shot.
Click to expand...
Amen. Any fool who draws a weapon on any armed person is asking to be killed. The same goes for people who come to Bladeforums and ask what's a good fighting knife. Knives aren't for fighting, it's not a game, it's not for aggression. It may work for self-defense, in a pinch.

All the equipment and technique in the world goes right out of your mind when death steps up and points that bony finger. Center mass is 1) the easiest target to hit, 2) the safest target to hit with no collateral damage, 3) the most likely target to stop the attacker.

Incidently, on shooting the man in the legs ... where in the legs? You can't hit his lower legs, the target's too naroow and it's moving too much. Go for the thigh. Oops! femoral artery -- he'll die faster than if you do shoot him in the chest.

I'm a great believer in impact weapons. I grew up in a time when a cop was defined by his big wooden baton, twirled on a long leather thong. Now they get hauled into court if they use a baton on a violent drunk or drug addict.

I wish they did have access to more tools, but you can't carry the whole toolshed around, even if you've got some of it in the trunk of the vehicle. It's not there when the attacker jumps up out of nowhere.

I don't think there are any really good answers to questions like this. I do think the first reaction should be, lets get the whole story before we think about criticizing the police.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I don't think there are any really good answers to questions like this. I do think the first reaction should be, lets get the whole story before we think about criticizing the police.
Click to expand...

Yep, I think that's really the bottom line.

And as far as the perp being black I wonder how many of the police officers were the same? AFAIC I don't think race or color enters into the picture.

Another reason I hate to see people with a knife being aggressive is the bleeding hearts wanting to outlaw the knife itself. The big problem with that is that about 95% of aggression with knives is done with the lowly and usually cheap kitchen knife or a $2.00 POS from Pakistan or China and not the high end fixed blade or folder.
If we're not careful here in the states we could end up like the UK and not having points on our kitchen knives, let alone being allowed to carry anything with over a 2" blade.:(
 
Hi Fredricko:

I know what you mean about NJ. I had an unrestricted carry permit there for 20 years. Had to go before a judge every two years to renew and pay a lawyer to be with me. But, I could carry. Often had a primary pistol and an ankle gun.

NJ gun laws are terrible.
 
I believe anyone who points a weapon at a cop can be shot. I believe a cop deserves and gets a lot of leeway, especially from people who don't have a clue about shootings, take downs, etc etc. I believe in center mass targeting.

That said, I am now going to leave 98% of all law enforcement officers behind on this forum. We part ways.

There is a difference between legal and justifiable, and best outcome. Often, we can't have a situation where everyone goes away happy. Sometimes people get killed we wish in hindsight had not. That does not mean LE is at fault- that is the way life goes.

But still, I would not be alive were it not for the kindness and good judgement of police, not this rigid aherence to body mass, 'walk in my shoes because you don't understand," "Can't shoot his arm out of the sky at 5o feet sort of arguments."

I'm starting to feel the same way about this attitude as I do about 'if it spares the life of one child..."

I would back almost all officer shootings- that is- the officer should be vindicated.

But what's legal and what's right, most right, are different.

I am not saying I would try to shoot a hazy arm holding a gun most times, I can see civilians in jeopardy, not to mention my fellow officers. But I would try it if I could. AT my best I could dot an 'I' in about any reasonable distance. It is all I used to do- reload and shoot. Most officers were not in the same world as I was regarding firearms. The three times I faced firearms in a potential lethal circumstance, in two of them I had a gun either in my hand, or ready,and was very very calm. I once had a guy with a rifle firing right past my chest into my apartment. He was standing 18 inches away. One time a guy had his hand in his trench coat and was provoking me to blow it so he could shoot me. I planned on ramming the car full of his gang banger buddies, pulling my 38, and killing him. As it was, I asked if he needed help and turned the situation completely around. Another time after hearing shots there was a punk behind my truck- I had a 1911 in my hand and would have shot. Once again instinct, or good judgement prevailed, and I asked in my best 'been there' voice, "Man, are you OK?" The punk begged me not to shoot and hobbled away. He'd taken a bad fall off my fence..

I've been beaten in Jails, by cops and inmates. I've had IV poles swung at my skull. I've had my eyes nearly pulled out of the sockets by sociopaths in the Psch unit. We've taken down marital artists, and just plain scary folks. I've seen guns pulled out of women's private parts. I've seen a woman's insides pulled out. I've seen the craziest darn things you could ever imagine, being crazy on the streets. I've seen women and small children avoid me on the sidewalk. I've seen Police spare my life and countless other lives. I
provoked police shamlessly, and have stood by them shoulder to shoulder facing a psychotic criminal.

I've lived on all sides of the fence except never been a criminal. In all the things I've seen, kindness is the thread that runs through them all. There is a kindness in our fellow man. I've seen this in Doctors, cops, drunks, you name it.

Cops could have shot me plenty of times but never did. I could have maimed many patients but never did.

Would there ever occur a time I shot someone's legs out from under them rather than shoot them in the chest? Probably. If the shooting was justified, and I knew I couldn't count on too much of a reach, would I just do a body mass shot? Sure. It would all depend. The best officers I ever knew had a sense about folks. They didn't go around dropping people with chest shots because they knew too damn much and if they could, would never allow the situation to get there. You can't quantify that or qualify it. It's almost a God given talent.

It's really hard to put this into words, but if I'm hearing dogmatic chest shot stuff here, All I see is a dogmatic future. I think a more sane society has more options.

(and btw, I'm by no means Billy the Kid. But firearms used to be all I did I'd go sleep with one by my bed. I'd handle them all day. I'd shoot many times a week at all ranges- and not at known target ranges but randomly in the desert at orbitrary distances with a wide variety of weapons.)

To tell the truth, I've let my skills go so far down I'm more inclined to be a chest shot drop 'em guy today.

A friend of mine who worked for me in the gun shop finally made it on to a local police agency. Within a few months of employment, he was let go. HE killed a suspect who refused to comply and was reaching for something. He was exonerated of any charge, but the agency let him go. They felt he did not have the intangible good judgement needed.

As society deteriorates, behavior gets rigid, and people become emotionally and intellectually brittle.

Remember the guy shot numerous times in NY for reaching for his wallet? That wasn't right. It doesn't matter if I'd let the cops go because I can see why they did what they did; it was not right.
The life of a cop is not greater than our constitutional protections. The Federal Government is not greater than the Constitution.

Let me flip this around another way; there are probably many judicious ass kickin's delivered by cops to bad guys, who then are not charged and not brought in, that do more for peace in the streets than any 90 day incarceration for distubing the peace.

California passed the 'no loaded gun in vehicle law' many decades ago at the lobbying of the Calif Highway patrol. What this did, is cause more deaths, because criminals were emboldened to carjack unarmed drivers. We did it because the life of a Policemen was worth more to than our own. In truth, it guarded neither ours nor the policemen's lives. Because bad guys wouldn't comply with the law anyway, and it was never an issue with the law abding folks.

Calif also passed laws regarding the depth of tinted vehicle windows, because officers could not see inside the vehicles as easily.

You know what might be best for officers? If all citizens lived in cells. That might make it safe.

The widespread use of shall issue concealed carry has probably done more to aide the lifespan of police officers and the public than any other measure in 40 years.

munk
 
This is really simple. Sad to say, but simple nonetheless. This is called natural selection.

We simply have too many people with little or no common sense living on this planet.

When an authority figure points a gun at you and tells you to stop you might want to calm down and start listening. :rolleyes:

Besides, are the LEO's in Japan allowed to carry firearms? I know the populace at large do not have that right, correct?
 
DIJ,

I'm a little disappointed, brother. You, of everyone here, should know how dangerous even a small knife can be. You also know how many, many, many long hours of training it can take to have even a reasonable chance of performing an unarmed disarm of a knife wielder.

I'm certain your skill level is considerably above mine now, Danny. You've literally had training from the best- but I'd give you about a 1% chance of affecting a disarm against me without the benefit of any weapons without incurring serious injury.

I'd give myself a reasonable chance against someone who didn't have any training, and no experience, and I have thousands of hours of martial training. Could I stop someone like this? SURE. (I'd use tools.) Could I do it without seriously injuring them? Maybe, but the truth is, I wouldn't even try unless it were someone I loved more than I love myself.

I love lots of people- everyone, really- but those who purposefully violently victimize others have given up their rights, including that of life.

That's how it is.

For the record, deliberately shooting someone in a limb may be a crime. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS "shoot to stop".

John
 
Disappointed? Because I asked for mercy?
This is what I said "I am just hoping for a wider range of options in police response to perceived threats."

The ultimate goal of the martial arts is control. When a person claims that they have "no choice" but to do something in a certain situation, then they are telling you that they have no control. That's what I am trying to say.
I find it very troubling to hear from people that the police have been forced into a situation where they have only one response for every circumstance.
I dont think this is true yet, but the perception of it as reality can be a problem in itself.

I never suggested that anyone attempt to disarm a knife-wielding attacker without a weapon. How you got that idea you'll have to explain to me. I think I mentioned baseball bats at one point. I have changed my mind today, though, and now I think as garden rake would be a better choice.



Esav: Knives and spears are probably the two most used and important fighting tools in the history of mankind. Archaeology has demonstrated that the vast majority of large bladed stone tools were not for hunting. I can explain this in more detail if anyone is interested.
 
For the record, deliberately shooting someone in a limb may be a crime. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS "shoot to stop".
>>>>>>>>> John

And this may be true, I don't know. What I do know is it is a sad day when I must kill someone rather than maim. You can wrap that up in any legalizm or 'logic', but the bottom line is it is just plain wrong.
And hey- I don't know what I might do. I'm not the shot I once was, and I just might shoot to 'stop'. I can participate in an insane world as good as the next man. Still doesn't make it right.

munk
 
munk said:
For the record, deliberately shooting someone in a limb may be a crime. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS "shoot to stop".
>>>>>>>>> John

And this may be true, I don't know. What I do know is it is a sad day when I must kill someone rather than maim.

munk
Click to expand...

You shoot to kill when it comes to coons.:p
They're just four legged people, albeit little bandits but people none the less.
 
You'know what's weird? I would much soon grapple a guy with a gun then a knife!! I know a knife's whole thing is close range...tangle at cqc range and you'll at the least get sliced up....maybe;more likely you'll get killed if the person is trained to kill.

All I've taught myself about knives/swords is this:get close;be swift;strike hard;strike well;be aggressive...if done right;if your enemy isn't expecting it you'll mostly stomp them.

Non-kinfe folk don't realize just what a knife can do with very little effort on the user's part...any who've cut thmselves know....bone sure is white hn?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top