New Product Idea

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Mar 22, 2002
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Looking at my Karda's, no matter how well made or long, I found myself wishing for a full tang.

Idea number one: full tang Kardas available

Idea number two: have forged but unfinished full tang blades of different sizes available for sale. I'd like to try fitting a handle myself. These blades could be shaped but need the final edge and finish.


munk
 
Yvsa has proposed that HI offer forged, hardened/tempered, unfinished blanks before. In fact he had purchased such from HI a long time ago. Needless to say, his personally-crafted final product is beautiful and inspiring. Wish I could do a search and post a link to the post/review he made of it (excellent pix) ...but I'm an 'assistant to the peon' basic member with no priviledges :(
 
Why a full tang? If a partial can work on a full size kukri, it certainly will do for the largest karda or chakmak. Or do you want it for aesthetic reasons? I have never seen an old one made with a peened over tang, but that doesn't mean it was never done.

There are very few set rules when it comes to Nepalese or Indian kukris.
 
or would HI lose sales if "kit" parts were made available? I don't know how integrated the various elements of the design, manufacture, finishing and sheathing are to the HI organization and the income stream it provides, but separating out any one element provides additional hassles.

Would you then also provide an HI warantee on the blades only? On other elements, e.g. sheaths, that might be ordered? What kind of profit margins would separating out provide? Would they be worth the trouble?

Who would be doing the paperwork? Import licenses might be different, the postal services might have new regs soon on shipping ANYTHING, and who keeps the inventory up?

Finally (well probably not, but for now), go back to the initial "first khukri" reports posted by Geezer and others...they are love stories, not documentation of acquisition. Would a low-end, blade-only purchaser ever get the sense of wonder that a fully finished HI khuk provides when it arrives?


Just some thoughts.


Kis
:rolleyes:
 
I think most of that is just worrisome thought, Kismet. I specialize in worrisome thought, myself...
I don't think HI will lose money. The cost of a Kami doing the finish is nothing compared to the work by you or I or a knifemaker. I don't think there would be import problems, in fact, probably less.

The only reason I wanted a full tang was for strength. A partial and pinned is fine, but keep in mind the Khukuri works that way because it is the fulcrum of the larger weight. ( and if that's not the right word than it is the end of a tool that recieves the least stress. To me, a khukuri works a little like a sling.) I think a smaller knife has more or at least different stresses on it. Yeah, I know, I'm no scientist. It just seems to me being a straight plane or edge more of the entirety is under stress. Thus spake Munk who knew little.

I see there are no ideas new under the sun. Figures Yvsa would have done it. Those damn first ones are into everything.

munk
 
Well, the Yvsa Cherokee Special comes with two full tang (chiruwa style) kardas, but it's kind of a khuk that's out of production (however, Sher made a beautiful chiruwa version recently, so maybe they're back on or something). Here's the pic of the Sher YCS:
attachment.php

Note the rivets on the khuk and the kardas.
Keith
 
HI already sells kit knives. We call them blems, but the damage is usually to the handles and it would be fairly straight forward to pull them off and remount them to our satisfaction. I doubt Bill could sell them cheaper and still recover the cost of freight.

n2s
 
I've often wondered about the feasability myself.

I can already hear them saying "Why do they want a naked blade?" It would seem to them (the kamis) that we weren't satisfied with their handicraft. That we somehow think we could do better...

I don't think any of the production details matter. If there's a market for it, it will work.

I should clarify my "vote"...

I would only be interested in blanks - and would take either partial or full tang (the former leaving more room for creativity). I think there would still be a market for a kit, though. Perhaps, it would just include the knife and the wood covers. Everything else, you could get here.

I don't think the intent is to "make your own Bura-khukuri". I think it would be to experiment with other handle materials or maybe grind the blades down a little to reprofile, etc. It would be just for fun without having to go through the pain of getting a blem, removing all the handle material, etc. - that, to me, is more along the lines of fostering the aforementioned "well, we just don't appreciate kami work" mentality.

I would also recommend that they not be covered under the HI guarantee. Unnecessary hassle for Bill.
 
I support Munk's idea.

I have had a couple of ideas in my mind for handles that I would have liked to try out. But I need a blade with a naked tang for it.

If Himalayan Imports produces naked blades then they will have a cheaper product and the sales volume should increase. If that will keep the income of HI stabile, decrease it or increase as a first effect I don't know but I think it could be possible to control that by adjusting the price of the product after a while.

I am poor. More people like me would buy a naked blade if it was cheaper.
 
Right now we're doing well to keep things running as is. If we ever get back to more or less normal new ideas will be welcome.
 
"Naked Blade" sounds like a Detective movie with martial arts bit players....

The regular triangle tang is fine by me, to clarify. Bill says not possible now, but I didn't expect results today, but thought about sending the trial balloon up for tomorow.

I actually just want the blade. Not even the handle slabs. And all sizes, not just khuks, but smaller blades as well.


How about HI wood wedges?


munk
 
" How about HI wood wedges? "

Rusty and/or Walosi have posted links to sites that offer gorgeous wood (slabs too) for handles/gun stocks (...the German warehouse that has the burled wood gun stocks comes to mind -Rusty?).
 
I meant those crude metal wedges you drive into a log to split it. Maybe I didn't call it by the right name.


I've used fancy wood for revolver grips. Always looking for some more.


munk
 
As I understand it, the reason why HI no longer offers blade-only khuks is the weight/value ratio.

Handles, scabbards &c don't weigh a lot compared with the steel; most of the weight in a khuk is the blade. A major ingredient in the overhead is shipping costs. It costs only a little less to ship a blade-only, but it sells for a helluva lot less. Result; less revenue per item, same shipping cost. Bad business.

As I understand it, well over half the value (ie revenue potential) of a khuk lies in the handle, scabbard, small tools and finish.

When the cry went up for the 'HI Villager' series, there was a heck of a lot of demand, but the guys at BirGhorka weren't keen, because they knew they made more on the standard range of A1-finished khuks. The same argument applies to a blade-only range, in spades.

Although I'd love to be able to buy blade-only khuks to play with, I think Bill's right not to sell them if it's bad for the guys back in Nepal. Quite rightly, their best interests ahve always been his primary concern.
 
though you are correct about shipping metal only, it more than balanced by finishing costs. Further, if you add the weight of the sheath, karda, chakma and handle the shipping argument loses validity. It is cheaper for me to pay a Kami to finish the entire blade and provide the accessories than to have it done or do it myself. Blanks are unfinished. If a Kami can bang out one or two finished khuks a day, how many blanks? I'll bet enough to keep the profit going. I also bet you could stack a pile of blanks into a single box, which eliminates a lot of packing and handling costs. They can't break. You fold them in paper once and lay them like cards.
The villagers have not swept the best HI products away. I own a villager. I would rather pay a little more in almost all cases and get the final brilliant product. They are just better done, even if they weren't mirror finished. I like my new 20" villager and I'm glad I have it. It chops. But I like almost all my other khuks a little better.

munk
 
Good ideas from Munk.

But even if the blades became less profitable and needed to have a high price I wouldn't mind buying a nearly as expensive naked rig (naked blade) costing close to a blade with a handle. People who have our interest of making their own handles are eccentrics like us after all. A too small market perhaps.

Originally posted by Tom Holt

Although I'd love to be able to buy blade-only khuks to play with, I think Bill's right not to sell them if it's bad for the guys back in Nepal. Quite rightly, their best interests ahve always been his primary concern.
I forgot that this business is a special one since it doesn't rest on brutal capitalism but an ethical platform of deep human values.
 
I think it could be done in a way that all values are supported. Pretty simple, really, if it didn't work, it wouldn't work.

But it's all pie in the sky anyway.


munk
 
I still believe there is a valid market for this. Let's have an open-minded look at what would actually happen:

- Shipping costs: blanks would be easier to package, and less expensive. They could be simply tossed in with the rest of a shipment, or shipped separately in a smaller container. Even if it costs alot, it is still less than the cost of the full package - relatively speaking.
Cost decrease factor = .80

- Labor cost should be significantly less. Profiling, grinding and rudimentary finishing is still labor intensive, but is only part of a bigger picture. Even more so when you consider the Berk Special compared to an 18" WWI.
Cost decrease factor = .60 to .30 depending on complexity

- Managing the work should be easier too - just stop the work after the blade is shaped and given an edge. However, getting them to remember to do this, as well as agree to do it could be aggravating - so add in an aggravation factor. Plus, using up blade blanks mean underproduction of handle/sheath materials and extra management in inventory, etc. The reason for accounting for this is an increase in overhead by managers/supervisors, etc.
Cost increase factor = 1.20

- Material costs: obviously this would also decrease. Especially with knives with extra add-ons such as the YCS. Since you would get the khuk only, you wouldn't expect to get the karda - although that is and option, I guess...
Cost decrease factor = .7 to .4 depending on complexity

- Warranty - as mentioned before, eliminate the warranty as well as the "blem" category - WYSIWYG...everything "AS IS". No defects to worry about. Sure, I'd be disappointed at a failed blade, but at least I wouldn't have to tear apart a handle to regrind it. Of course, there have been relatively few failures, so who knows...
Cost decrease/increase factor = indeterminate



This would make an overall cost factor differential of .12 (low end) to .40 (high end). Or, rather, a blade blank should cost roughly 20-40% of the regular production price (on the HI site). This is high (as expected) compared to blade blanks from shops like Texasknives.com, jantzsupply.com, etc. where you can get blades for $15-$30 and turn around knives in the $50-$200 range. However, comparatively, quality handmade blades typically sell for $40 and up to $200 depending on the size and quality (not counting damascus).



So, let's give this a shot:

A 15" BAS is fairly commonplace in the production line and should be a good example.

shipping would be .8
the labor .5
management 1.1 (not too tough)
materials .7

total cost reduc = .31 or the blade would be roughly 30% of the full cost ($100)
blade blank = $30

Now, Bill regularly sells BAS blems for $50 - $75 so it's not very cost-effective for the buyer. Still, it's less than a full set.



Now, compare that with the YCS for example:

shipping .8
labor .5 (a tough blade to grind, but still less to do)
management 1.2 (already a pain to manage...)
materials .4 (no fancy inlays, etc)

total cost reduc = .19 or roughly $50

Now this is a great deal for a nice blade, considering its "potential". It would also be an easy sell because of the high demand.


This analysis is based on a few "given" factors:

- The blade blanks would have to be based on existing production lines and not new designs, etc.
- They would be manufactured on a hit-n-miss basis with neither regularity, consistency, nor "on demand" delivery.
- Kamis would probably not "sign" the blades since the blade would potentially come unfinished/unsharpened
- The blank would probably not be blessed (meaning: diff. level of concern/care)
- HI's overhead/profit would be the same as regular producst sold on the shopping site, and not blems, PGA's, etc.



Now, judging from the photos I've seen, the other 3rd world shops I've been in, and the people I've talked to, most of these handmade blade shops (that are successful) build their knives in a kit-like process anyway.

For example, one guy makes all the wood shields, one person generates the leather pieces, another one starts the steel profiling, etc. The person who takes credit for the knife still does most of the work, but not all of it. Additionally, most of their attention is likely split between the blade and the handle, and not the sheath.

Therefore, a blade blank should be an easy product to manufacture.

The only truly valid concern at this point (IMHO) is the interuption of regular business activities - a problem that Bill knows all too well. Part of what we pay for (as khuk buyers) is the long line of traditional production - that means, paying somebody to do the same thing over and over again, without change. This has driven costs down because of mass production and ease of operation (that's why custom orders are higher costs). When change comes, it can really send production into a spiral. I know this - I have seen it time and time again. IMHO, that's why Bill is reticent to approve a new idea. It would create yet another baby to babysit and would probably require lengthy phone calls ending in "Fine, Whatever." It's tough enough just to keep the guys doing the job at hand, let alone add another potentially confusing element to their task list.



However, all that said, I still think that producing blade blanks as an regular option is a good idea and a relatively untapped market that could be explored further. It won't be a profit-driving venture for HI, but would, with time, generate other return business - and that is the life-blood that keeps most businesses alive.
 
That was well organized, Pen. My only observation is your assessment is still a guess. Doing would prove the formula, eh!?


munk
 
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