New REKAT folder: "Escalator"

Jim March

Jim March

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 7, 1998
Messages
3,018
Quoted in it's entirety from rec.knives:

Bruce Bullman wrote in message <36678842.CE102573@bullmancutlery.com>...
>Has anyone seen this one yet? I'd really be interested in what Chas has
>to say about the claims.
>
>http://commonsenseselfdefense.com/escalate.htm
>
>Bruce
>Bullman Cutlery
>http://www.bullmancutlery.com

Interesting. I think I see what they're trying to do; some may recall a Cold Steel Vaquero Grande thread where I proposed smashing at joints with the *closed* back bulging spine if there's no time for a snapopen.

They're trying to take that sort of thinking from "desperation plan B" stuff to "formal system" by allowing the spine hit to actually cause the blade to open if desired via the blunt spike.

Hmmmmmm. Not totally insane. The REKAT lockwork is strong enough for what they're attempting. Laws allowing it can even be sharpened double-edge.

Bad news is, this first version is a 2.95" blade. Do this up as a 4", you've got my attention; do it as a 5" and I'll buy one RIGHT NOW, absofreakinlutely, you can take my Cold Steel Vaquero Grande in trade forever.

In any case, it's an interesting experiment. Kudos again to REKAT for trying to build totally combat-oriented pieces.

HEY, waitasec. Wait ONE cotton pickin' second. Could a custom maker provide a piece of metal that could do a similar spike as a
home-drill-and-bolt-on addition to a CS VG spine??? If done right you'd maybe reduce stabbing penetration by mebbe an inch and a half...big fat hairy deal. Do it in Titanium to save a bit of weight, you'd set it up so
that it "forks" over the spine, you'd then drill using the spike add-on as the initial guide, the add-on would come pre-tapped on one side and complete with screws. One of the screwholes would be the THUMB STUD POST HOLE and the whole thing would replace the THUMB STUD!!!

ALAN FOLTS! YOU work in Titanium, whaddya think? Can this be done for $50 or less, convert a CS VG to a giant club that snaps into a blade on impact!?! Man, that would sure encourage REKAT to get out of that 3" rut in a HURRY!

Jim March (Hey REKAT, wanna do a production "Outsider"
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Thanks for the heads-up on the Escalator. This is definitely a knife worth looking into because of its innovative design. They weren't kidding when they said that this blade was designed with joint-locking in mind. Of course, the main equalizer that makes reverse grip a viable choice to begin with is joint-locking. The oversized thumb ramp (or palm ramp in this case I guess) looks more than adequate to keep the user's hand away from the blade, but I wonder if the shallow finger groove is enough to keep your fingers away from the blade. And the thing about intermediate force like kubotan? Uh, I could've done that with my AFCK by gorilla gripping the closed folder in a forward position and capping the pivot end with my thumb. In fact, the blade kinda loses me as to exactly how that blade traps and strikes pressure points if held in reverse in a closed position.

I'll tell you what absolutely impresses me though: It's got a double edge. You don't find many folders that can pull that off successfully. They've definitely earned their bragging rights on this one.

Although I am not a knifemaker, and I may be somewhat picky, I'm still somewhat dismayed that they haven't gotten out of their rut on poor blade to handle ratio. One last nagging doubt. I wonder how comfortable it actually is for daily carry. I know, it's a combat monster, but nevertheless, an uncomfortable knife is a knife rendered useless when the owner leaves it home.

(On a side note, I wish I was a knife tester. So many questions would be easily answered had people just submit their knives to me for evaluations.
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[This message has been edited by SB (edited 04 December 1998).]
 
Well. Well. Well..

Finally I get to see a pic, I have been dying for the last month waiting to see one, and I will have to buy one.

I will buy it form Rick at BitterRoot Cutlery in Coeur D'Alene ID. hint, hint....

Too cool, I will buy one just for the uniqueness, and the endorsement of Bram.

Innovation, designed for use in non-lethal situations, then drag the hump and BANG, open it up if you have to.....

------------------
Marion David Poff fka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com

Patiently waiting for the Spyderco SpydeRench, Lum Chinese Chopper Folder, Rolling Lock, Benchmade M2 Axis, M2 Axis AFCK, M2 Pinnacle and the REKAT Escalator and Pat Crawford Design.

"The victorious Warrior wins first and then goes to war, while the defeated Warrior goes to war and then seeks to win" Sun-Tzu














 
One possible problem: I'm not sure pulling a closed folding knife as a non-LETHAL alternative is a viable legal tactic. I see it giving the other guy a good excuse to pull his because let's face it, he's not going to know "quite what's up".

Now, I understand drawing and not having time to do an open, esp. against, say, a club attack. But...I don't like the legal quagmire involved if you draw it on an unarmed opponent.

However that's IF you as the defender are seen as "totally able bodied". Note that smaller individuals (esp. female) dealing with a bigger type may be able to "push the limits" with less hassle. Unfortunately, ladies very well versed in a martial art that could use this puppy are relatively rare. Those that do exist (hi, Donna!) may have graduated to bigger cutlery and/or a gun.

I dunno. If I was regularly facing a serious 3" blade limit this pup might be a winner for me. I'm not, neither are a lot of people...but as I said, hurray for REKAT for even trying a new theory in combat cutlery.

Also, I'm wondering if making the "spike smash" if the blade is double-sharpened might not be a bad idea unless you've got it locked in your brain not to wrap it fully around with your fingers.

Unless...hmmm, if you were wearing motorcycle gloves it might not matter. Come to think, operating a thumb stud or any other type of folder with gloves on is a real mess. This "smash the blade open on the opponent" idea may be a partial solution to the gloves dillema; they offer GREAT protection but aren't worth it if you can't draw a knife.

Much to ponder here.

Jim March
 
does anyone have a link to a pic of the escalator? Or an address? I'm dying of curiosity! Drool, drool . . .
Oh, wait, duh! picture at: http://commonsenseselfdefense.com/escalate.htm
small, but very interesting!

[This message has been edited by fishface (edited 04 December 1998).]
 
Mostly, ya.

Kubatons and mini-maglights (basically the same weapon type) can theoretically slip by. The original maker of the kubaton was trying to make something less likely to penetrate and kill than a standard metal-bodied PEN. This should have a favorable effect in court, especially if you don't actually split their skull wide open with one!

But trying the same stunt with a closed knife? Hmmmm...I'm not dead certain it'll cause problems but it sure looks potentially messy.

NOTE: I'm not a lawyer, and I doubt a real one would know either. Kubaton law is NOT well established, it's all new territory. Use of a closed folder as a weapon I doubt has come up *anywhere*.

That said, I *like* the basic idea. For one, once open it's still an effective concept esp. with a bigger blade. For those messes that go down so fast there's no time for a snapopen it's a potential lifesaver.

Jim March
 
MDP - just to toss in my .02 - criminal liability does not necessarily follow from the use of a tool to repel an unarmed attacker. Everything depends on the laws of your own jurisdiction, of course, but in general the question is whether you used deadly force to repel a non-deadly attack. For instance, I know of a case in which a guy was successfully (?) prosecuted for pulling a knife and cutting (not stabbing)one of three guys who had him corned and were merrily stomping him with fists and feet. The idea was that the stompee had replied to a good old-fashioned butt-whipping (i.e. non-deadly force, in the opinion of the judge) with a deadly attack (i.e. knife). Never mind that each of the weapons employed have the potential to cause death . . . . Anyway, one could respond to a fist attack with a cane, or a kubotan perhaps, or maybe a barstool, as long as the cops who show up later don't see it as an attack with a deadly weapon & don't charge it as such. Using a knife of legal size, CLOSED, to trap or punch the pressure points of a bad guy would probably tickle the cops; as long as you hadn't cut your opponent, in the doubtful scenario that the cops charged you, no reasonable prosecutor would pursue the case. (Reasonable). BUT, what is really more scary than criminal prosecution is the spectre of civil liability!! If some mope grabs at you jacket yelling "gimme money" and you, an accomplished martial artist, pull some severely disabling move, you are going to be on the wrong end of an endless and unbelievably expensive lawsuit, believe it! It won't matter if you use a knife, your thumb or dental floss. Massad Ayoob makes this point about guns frequently, but it is just as true for other means of self-defense. Which is why the best response is 1) run, or if not that 2) respond to degree. Speaking as a lawyer, I warn all readers: never underestimate the power of an unscrupulous lawyer to give you years of bank-breaking misery over a completely justified act of self defense.
Just a merry message of hope for the holidays . . . I guess that was more like .25 . . .

 
Kicking/stomping somebody on the ground is deadly force. California DAs have charged people with assault with a deadly weapon in such cases, which can work to your favor if that's what you're on the recieving end of.

You've also got "disparity of force" issues involving the small, the female, the disabled.

Jim March
 
There is definitely a place for intermediate force such as fighting with your folder closed. Tactically speaking, you might have a blade already palmed, fearing for the worst. But maybe because the situation hasn't turned out serious enough to skewer somebody and you don't have enough time to put back your knife. So, you fend the BG off using the blade closed instead. Or, depending on the speed and situation, you may not even have the chance to open it and use it in time. Again, fighting with the folder closed bridges the gap for such contingencies. Legally speaking, regardless of what happens, you can at least say, "Hey, I fought him with the blade closed at first. I did what I could to protect myself without trying to harm someone excessively."

Naturally, discretion and caution must be exercised.

$.02

[This message has been edited by SB (edited 07 December 1998).]
 
I used to think I had it figured out to a degree. Now I know that your odds in court are as good as a coin toss. No rhyme or reason. My buddy just got stabbed in one of the few reknowned parts of the body that can be lethal (the solar plexus), and the perp walked because it was a first time offense and he "only was stabbed once" so it wasn't malicious. He didn't do a damn thing to deserve it either. The case was thrown out. I don't get it. I would have gone so far to have called it attempted murder, and so would you if you heard the details. The court saw it as not even a misdemeanor.

Anyway, I have been using my closed folder as a weapon for a few years and preaching about it. Maybe someone caught on, or maybe I didn't think of it first. Most folders I carry have to pass the pre-requisite of me being able to close them in my fist and punch with them and not hurt my hand (too fat of a folder, like Cold Steel's folders, will destroy your hand if you try this.). My AFCK and a few others are slim enough to work really well, and with a snap I can employ lethal force if needed.

I don't think with the speed things happen that a BG is going to realize that you have a "yawara" and then have time to escalate, and besides that BG's usually start off with their big guns, they don't escalate.

I also think you would easily walk if you use a closed folder. In fact, after this last charade, it is proven that you can flat out gut someone and walk as long as you have no prior record.

The legal system sucks. Ever notice that almost every time you hear about an off-duty or ex-cop using self defense like this, that they leave the scene and don't report it? They have the right idea, and they know they have good reason (read the new Tactical Knives true story "It Happend To Me" for yet another example of this). You should probably not gamble, and try your best just not to get caught if you do have to use anything to defend yourself. (whoops...did I saw that?). Most of all, within reason, do whatever it takes to defend yourself, because there is no sure thing that you will be prosecuted for anything.

thaddeus
 
thad,

I think your argument has a good bit of merit to it...

------------------
Marion David Poff fka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com

Patiently waiting for the Spyderco SpydeRench, Lum Chinese Chopper Folder, Rolling Lock, Benchmade M2 Axis, M2 Axis AFCK, M2 Pinnacle and the REKAT Escalator and Pat Crawford Design.

"The victorious Warrior wins first and then goes to war, while the defeated Warrior goes to war and then seeks to win" Sun-Tzu














 
Thad:

Yeah, fighting without the blade open has been around for a long time. I'm quite sure you know this already, but the Balisong includes "yawari" striking, trapping, pinching for example. Recognizing the use of intermediate force with a modern folder, however, seems like a new trend. I guess this makes sense since realistic fighting folders have only been around just recently. The fact that the industry is still struggling with the problem of locking mechanisms shows its infancy.

$.02

[This message has been edited by SB (edited 10 December 1998).]
 
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