New rifle ... Should I go 30-06 or a magnum?

7mm Mag is a step above 30-06... look at Remingtons Swift Scirocco Bonded round both in 150gr. 7mm is 3221 ft-lbs Energy @ Muzzle, 30-06 is 2820. Zero at 100 yards the 7mm drops 34" at 500 yards and the 30-06 drops 42.3". To a true shooter/hunter 8.3" is a lot.

Its been a while since I've boned up on my ballistics charts, that may be true, but imo a True Hunter, is going to get closer than 500 yards.

The number of people that are able to proficiently shoot at 500 yards is so small, its almost a non issue...

Back to the OP's original question, if you have never shot a magnum before, it would be nice if you could find someone that has one, that you can shoot.
Some people don't handle recoil well. The 7's and 300's aren't much different than an 06 to me, but then again I'm a little twisted, because I like the feel of recoil :D
I use to go to the range and put 30-50 rounds through my 338's and 375's. When you step up to the 338's and 375's, there is a noticeable increase in recoil.

It won't do you any good to have a bigger caliber if you can't shoot it well.
 
7mm Mag is a step above 30-06... look at Remingtons Swift Scirocco Bonded round both in 150gr. 7mm is 3221 ft-lbs Energy @ Muzzle, 30-06 is 2820. Zero at 200 yards the 7mm drops 34" at 500 yards and the 30-06 drops 42.3". To a true shooter/hunter 8.3" is a lot.

Muzzle energy never kills anything. It's a paper figure.

Disadvantages to the various Magnums:

More Recoil.
Ammunition cost.
Rifle cost.
You HAVE to have at least a 26" barrel to reach the figures quoted for factory ammo.
Less magazine capacity.
Less accuracy.

Advantages:

More muzzle velocity.

That an awful lot of disadvantages to contend with to gain higher muzzle velocity.
 
Muzzle energy never kills anything. It's a paper figure.

Disadvantages to the various Magnums:

More Recoil.
Ammunition cost.
Rifle cost.
You HAVE to have at least a 26" barrel to reach the figures quoted for factory ammo.
Less magazine capacity.
Less accuracy.

Advantages:

More muzzle velocity.

That an awful lot of disadvantages to contend with to gain higher muzzle velocity.

...it is the energy that kills, more importantly can make the all the difference in game retrieval and since the muzzle energy is directly related to the energy messurements at targeted range....I would say that muzzle energy is pretty important. It is so important the most states have min. bullet energy laws for large game....ethical hunting practices.

also, a true hunter knows that trophy animals wont let hunters within 300-500 yards...unless they just make a mistake. Which does happen but not much.
 
Kirk, a gun you may want to look into is the Weatherby Vanguard® SUB-MOA. It's listed at 1k but my buddy just picked one up for $700. I live in the same town as Weatherby rifles and have shot the .270, .308 and 300 WSM sub-MOA rifles and they are amazing. To get a sub-MOA guarantee rifle it is normally a custom and over $2500. The stocks are a little shorter than I like.http://www.weatherby.com/product/rifles/vanguard/submoa_matte
 
...it is the energy that kills, more importantly can make the all the difference in game retrieval and since the muzzle energy is directly related to the energy messurements at targeted range....I would say that muzzle energy is pretty important. It is so important the most states have min. bullet energy laws for large game....ethical hunting practices.

also, a true hunter knows that trophy animals wont let hunters within 300-500 yards...unless they just make a mistake. Which does happen but not much.

No offense, but this is one of the most ridiculous statements I may have ever read on a forum.

I'd guess that around 90% of trophy animals killed each year are within 100 yds. Many guides that I've talked to, especially when hunting for dangerous game, won't even let a hunter shoot past 100 yds. My family (on my mother's side) is from Zambia and Tanzania. They hunt more in a year than any of us here in the USA hunt in 10 years. They own 13,000 hectares. My cousin also guides part time on his land. He hunts EVERYTHING with a Model 70 Classic in .270. He's taken eland, lion, leopard, and just about every other horned species with it. Giraffe too. His longest shot on a trophy animal is less than 200 yds, on the plains. When he visited me last year, we spent an entire evening discussing hunting. He is astonished that people use magnums for any game in North America, other than the big bears. His exact words were "Why do so many American hunters feel the need to use such cannons?" Do you know what the most popular round is for deer sized game in his area? The .223 Remington.

There are many serious deer hunters in my family. The most popular round is the 30-06. Second is the .243. The only reason for that is because they wanted something more accurate that their old Marlin 336 rifles. In KY, you are allowed ONE buck each season. Last year, they took a 140, a 150, two that were over 160 and one monster that was 179 B&C. These are gross scores. Not ONE of those deer was killed past 100 yds, and not ONE of them was taken over a food plot, baited area, etc. Only two were taken with a rifle. The others were bow kills.

Energy doesn't kill. Animals die from tissue trauma and loss of blood pressure, nothing more, nothing less. :rolleyes:

The only reason some states have minimum requirements on energy is that it's the ONLY quantitative measurement comparison between rounds that is readily available.

If energy was the key to killing, then bow hunters, boar hunters who use knives and spears, black powder hunters, and any other form of killing that isn't a based on a large cased centerfire round would never accomplish their task.

Whether you spout kinetic energy (muzzle energy), the Wooters Lethality Index, or the Taylor Knockout Formula, it all comes down to hitting a vital area on the animal.

Put a projectile of any kind through the lungs or heart, said animal will soon die. It doesn't care if the projectile has 5000lbs of energy or 500lbs of energy.

So, it doesn't matter what you hunt with as long as you can hit the right area on the animal.

On the Weatherby Vanguards.... I had the Vanguard Varmint Special in .223 and .308. Very nice, accurate rifles at a good price.
 
I prefer .270 to most calibres as its a good compromise between flat shooting, knockdown, and recoil, its essentially a 30-06 case necked for a .270 diameter bullet instead. of a 308 diameter bullet, this gives you flatter shooting at longer ranges but less stopping power due to the lighter bullet, dont get me wrong tho you can get heavey enough bullets for what your doing, If your using factory loads get the 270 if you reload the 30-06 is awesome, as you can go hot and light for accuracy or super heavey to drop anything you point it at
 
:) I think we are talking about different types of animals for one thing....the long shot throphy animals I am talking about are Mule Deer, Blacktails, stone and doll sheep and antelope. We are for sure from different parts of the country,hunting in KY is a lot different than hunting in CA,NV and UT and I have no experience with big game in africa. I understand and agree with you on what kills an animal. I am a bow hunter and know that it is shot placement and Animals Bleed out and that is how they truely die...I agree 100%. What I was trying to say was that with a rifle you want a gun that is going to have some knock down power to make an ethical kill shot. You can loose an animal that you have shot through the heart because it didn't bleed out fast enough. With an arrow you have to have enought energy at contact to clear the vitals.
 
Muzzle energy never kills anything. It's a paper figure.

Disadvantages to the various Magnums:

More Recoil.
Ammunition cost.
Rifle cost.
You HAVE to have at least a 26" barrel to reach the figures quoted for factory ammo.
Less magazine capacity.
Less accuracy.

Advantages:

More muzzle velocity.

That an awful lot of disadvantages to contend with to gain higher muzzle velocity.

The only thing I don't agree with in your post is, less accuracy. If you match the load to the gun, AND you can shoot them, they are every bit as accurate as most other rounds... The big problem is, most people CAN'T shoot them, so everyone THINKS they aren't accurate.

I've owned 5 different 338's. Only one was finicky about the loads, it was a Weatherby MarkV. Typically Weatherbys are accurate, I think I just got a cull.
My Winchester Pre-64 Model 70 Super Grade in 338 will shoot under an inch. I have a target somewhere around here, that has 10 rounds in the same hole, measuring just under 1 inch... Thats with Federal Premium factory loads. I never bothered hand loading for it.
Back in the day, the 300 H&H was THE round for long distance target shooting. The 300 Win Mag is used a lot for long distance shooting, even for sniping use, where accuracy is very important

...it is the energy that kills, more importantly can make the all the difference in game retrieval and since the muzzle energy is directly related to the energy messurements at targeted range....I would say that muzzle energy is pretty important. It is so important the most states have min. bullet energy laws for large game....ethical hunting practices.

also, a true hunter knows that trophy animals wont let hunters within 300-500 yards...unless they just make a mistake. Which does happen but not much.

I've never paid much attention to ballistics charts. They just aren't important to me. For those that chose to believe in the paper numbers, look at the 45-70... It is probably one of the most mundane looking cartridges there is on paper, but its one of the most devastating rounds there is in the field.
Slow moving, big diameter, heavy bullet. Animals respond to that round when hit...

I shoot a 3 bladed broadhead with my bow, and IIRC I read somewhere with my setup, the K.E figure is only about 300 lbs. I've had animals that didn't go over 10 yards before stopping and tipping over. So the K.E numbers really don't mean much, unless you are using a bullet that has to have a certain amount of energy to properly expand.

Kirk, a gun you may want to look into is the Weatherby Vanguard® SUB-MOA. It's listed at 1k but my buddy just picked one up for $700. I live in the same town as Weatherby rifles and have shot the .270, .308 and 300 WSM sub-MOA rifles and they are amazing. To get a sub-MOA guarantee rifle it is normally a custom and over $2500. The stocks are a little shorter than I like.http://www.weatherby.com/product/rifles/vanguard/submoa_matte

The Vanguards are a great buy, and a nicely made rifle. I've never had a sub-moa Vanguard, but even the regular Vanguards are guaranteed to 1 1/2 inches IIRC, and I've heard people say they will do even better than that

No offense, but this is one of the most ridiculous statements I may have ever read on a forum.

I'd guess that around 90% of trophy animals killed each year are within 100 yds. Many guides that I've talked to, especially when hunting for dangerous game, won't even let a hunter shoot past 100 yds. My family (on my mother's side) is from Zambia and Tanzania. They hunt more in a year than any of us here in the USA hunt in 10 years. They own 13,000 hectares. My cousin also guides part time on his land. He hunts EVERYTHING with a Model 70 Classic in .270. He's taken eland, lion, leopard, and just about every other horned species with it. Giraffe too. His longest shot on a trophy animal is less than 200 yds, on the plains. When he visited me last year, we spent an entire evening discussing hunting. He is astonished that people use magnums for any game in North America, other than the big bears. His exact words were "Why do so many American hunters feel the need to use such cannons?" Do you know what the most popular round is for deer sized game in his area? The .223 Remington.

There are many serious deer hunters in my family. The most popular round is the 30-06. Second is the .243. The only reason for that is because they wanted something more accurate that their old Marlin 336 rifles. In KY, you are allowed ONE buck each season. Last year, they took a 140, a 150, two that were over 160 and one monster that was 179 B&C. These are gross scores. Not ONE of those deer was killed past 100 yds, and not ONE of them was taken over a food plot, baited area, etc. Only two were taken with a rifle. The others were bow kills.

Energy doesn't kill. Animals die from tissue trauma and loss of blood pressure, nothing more, nothing less. :rolleyes:

The only reason some states have minimum requirements on energy is that it's the ONLY quantitative measurement comparison between rounds that is readily available.

If energy was the key to killing, then bow hunters, boar hunters who use knives and spears, black powder hunters, and any other form of killing that isn't a based on a large cased centerfire round would never accomplish their task.

Whether you spout kinetic energy (muzzle energy), the Wooters Lethality Index, or the Taylor Knockout Formula, it all comes down to hitting a vital area on the animal.

Put a projectile of any kind through the lungs or heart, said animal will soon die. It doesn't care if the projectile has 5000lbs of energy or 500lbs of energy.

So, it doesn't matter what you hunt with as long as you can hit the right area on the animal.

On the Weatherby Vanguards.... I had the Vanguard Varmint Special in .223 and .308. Very nice, accurate rifles at a good price.


Well said.. :thumbup:
 
+1:thumbup:

I could not agree more and with ammo for the '06 still being reasonable you can practice.........:)

With the exception of thick skinned dangerous game there is almost nothing in Africa that you could not take with a '06 and the right load.

It would certainly be part of my 3 rifle African safari armory. (that is if I did'nt just have to look out the window to see the Elephants:D)

Good luck with your search and POST PICS!

Steven

I'm not use to seeing anything that big out my windows. :eek:

A good friend who was a custom rifle maker, use to go to Africa every year.
He took a 30-06 for the plains animals, and his 375 H&H for the Cape Buffs.

He had shot everything he could, multiple times, but never an Elephant.
He was diagnosed with Cancer, so he decided he would go back and get an elephant, so he could say he had taken every species, before he died.

He said it was the weirdest feeling, pointing a rifle that high to shoot something :D IIRC, he used the 375 for that shot
 
:) I think we are talking about different types of animals for one thing....the long shot throphy animals I am talking about are Mule Deer, Blacktails, stone and doll sheep and antelope. We are for sure from different parts of the country,hunting in KY is a lot different than hunting in CA,NV and UT and I have no experience with big game in africa. I understand and agree with you on what kills an animal. I am a bow hunter and know that it is shot placement and Animals Bleed out and that is how they truely die...I agree 100%. What I was trying to say was that with a rifle you want a gun that is going to have some knock down power to make an ethical kill shot. You can loose an animal that you have shot through the heart because it didn't bleed out fast enough. With an arrow you have to have enought energy at contact to clear the vitals.

All of those animals have the same anatomy.

There is really no such thing as knock down power. I read of a test in the one of the gun mags where a fellow (extremely stupid if you ask me, LOL) held a thick iron plate propped up on a table to test knock down power. They repeatedly shot the plate before he held it, to make sure that the bullets wouldn't penetrate. They shot it with a .458 Winchester Magnum, that has around 5000lbs of muzzle energy. They shot the plate 5 times. He was never knocked down. The .458 is regularly used in elephant and bear hunting, and is renowned for it's "knock down power".

There was another test down in Rifleshooter, I think it was. They mounted a solid wooden block that was 100lbs, I believe, suspended on a track. The block was able to move along the track. This test measured momentum of a bullet. They fired various cartridges at the block and measured the movement. The only rounds that resulted in more than a couple of inches of movement were the .45/70 and a 12 gauge shotgun slug. Catridges less than .30 caliber resulted in virtually no movement at all. Even the magnums. They did not use any large caliber magnum rounds.

338375...when I was talking about accuracy, I wasn't referring to the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle or round. I was referring to the person behind the gun. Regardless of how good of a marksman you are, you will always shoot better with less recoil, resulting in better field accuracy. I proved that to a guy just this season, with his new .300 Weatherby. He was bragging about being able to shoot at 500 yds. I told him that he'd group better at that range with my 30-06 than he will with his .300. So I had him shoot a group with each gun. While neither one was worth bragging about (much to his surprise), the group with the 30-06 was noticeably smaller.
 
I'm from the "less is more" camp, so .30-06 is my recommendation. You already know it and like it (a huge plus imo), and as you also know there are innumerable different loads to choose from. Magnums have their place, but in your case the 06 should do just fine.
 
This discussion has been going on since man began throwing rocks. Maybe even earlier. Are round rocks better then oval rocks?

.30-06 is hard to beat. There is little all these new fangled cartridges do except make the manufacturers money. That's a good thing I guess.

If I were in the market for a new rifle, it would be a tossup between .308 Winchester and .30-06. Both cartridges will take any critter on this continent.
 
338375...when I was talking about accuracy, I wasn't referring to the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle or round. I was referring to the person behind the gun. Regardless of how good of a marksman you are, you will always shoot better with less recoil, resulting in better field accuracy


I kinda figured that was what you were referring to. While I agree with you that a lot of people won't be as accurate, with higher recoiling guns, there always exceptions to the rule. In my own defense, I am one of those people. But I have put so many rounds through them, I don't think about it when I shoot.
If someone is even slightly hesitant about recoil, their accuracy will definitely suffer.

I like to watch other people shoot when I go to the range. It can be very entertaining :D
Some people flinch and jerk so bad when they pull the trigger, they will never hit anything in the field. Looking at their targets confirms this.

A few years ago, I watched a guy and his buddy unpack a new Weatherby MarkV 340, and their Swarovski spotting scope, and do some shooting.

After firing three shots, the guy doing the shooting proclaimed they were good to go. They packed up and left. I couldn't help but look at his target.
There were only two holes on the paper, and they were at opposing ends.
One didn't even hit the target. I think he just decided the 340 wasn't for him :D
 
This discussion has been going on since man began throwing rocks. Maybe even earlier. Are round rocks better then oval rocks?

.30-06 is hard to beat. There is little all these new fangled cartridges do except make the manufacturers money. That's a good thing I guess.

If I were in the market for a new rifle, it would be a tossup between .308 Winchester and .30-06. Both cartridges will take any critter on this continent.

Yep... Its almost like the Ford and Chevy debates :D

I agree. The new fangled short mags, and ultra mags, are an answer to a problem that never existed.
Talking to Rick Jamison one day, he said, while the new cartridges work, they were just a marketing tool to sell more guns and ammo. I guess that is a good thing, if it helps the companies stay alive.
The problem with the 06 I think is, its been around so long, the younger generation thinks its to old school, and not as effective. Maybe its just the fact that I am getting older :(

Its awful hard to argue though, with the track record the 06 has established over the years.
 
Watching people on range has definitely helped me with my shooting. Some of the stuff I've seen people do... man oh man. That's why I shoot at a relative's house now.

That's also why I NEVER EVER hunt with a gun that I haven't personally shot and zero'ed.

I learned a long time ago that my idea of zero'ed and other's people ideas are two COMPLETELY different things.

The old "I'm bore sighted at 500 yds and don't need to shoot it" drives me absolutely nuts.

Or this one:

(Honest to God, I had this conversation).

"I shot the deer at 450yds."

"What range are you zero'ed at?"

"I'm dead on at 100 yds."

"How'd you hold on the deer?"

"I held right on it's shoulder."

"What were you shooting?"

"My new .450 Marlin."

:eek:
 
Yep... Its almost like the Ford and Chevy debates :D

I agree. The new fangled short mags, and ultra mags, are an answer to a problem that never existed.
Talking to Rick Jamison one day, he said, while the new cartridges work, they were just a marketing tool to sell more guns and ammo. I guess that is a good thing, if it helps the companies stay alive.
The problem with the 06 I think is, its been around so long, the younger generation thinks its to old school, and not as effective. Maybe its just the fact that I am getting older :(

Its awful hard to argue though, with the track record the 06 has established over the years.

My next new rifle with probably be another .308. Or possible a Ruger #1 Single Shot in .303 British. That's what I'd really like to have.

Cotton Cordell (famous lure designer) once said "Lures aren't designed to catch fish. They're designed to catch fisherman."

Same thing with the short magnums, super short magnums, super duper whizz bang magnums... blah blah blah.
 
Watching people on range has definitely helped me with my shooting. Some of the stuff I've seen people do... man oh man. That's why I shoot at a relative's house now.

That's also why I NEVER EVER hunt with a gun that I haven't personally shot and zero'ed.

I learned a long time ago that my idea of zero'ed and other's people ideas are two COMPLETELY different things.

The old "I'm bore sighted at 500 yds and don't need to shoot it" drives me absolutely nuts.

Or this one:

(Honest to God, I had this conversation).

"I shot the deer at 450yds."

"What range are you zero'ed at?"

"I'm dead on at 100 yds."

"How'd you hold on the deer?"

"I held right on it's shoulder."

"What were you shooting?"

"My new .450 Marlin."

:eek:

LOL... A few years back I was at the range, and sitting next to a younger guy. When they shut down the range to retrieve targets, I got to talking to him... He asked what I was shooting, I told him a 338 win mag, and asked what he was shooting ? A 300 win mag he said. Told me had had got his first deer with it the year before, at 480 yards... I opted not to ask any more questions as my b.s meter was climbing.
He then asked me if I knew where the 100 yard targets where?
I said, WHAT?:confused:
I'm tired of shooting at the 300 yard targets and want to shoot at 100 yards, he said...

The look on his face was priceless when I told him we WERE shooting at 100 yards :D
 
My next new rifle with probably be another .308. Or possible a Ruger #1 Single Shot in .303 British. That's what I'd really like to have.

Cotton Cordell (famous lure designer) once said "Lures aren't designed to catch fish. They're designed to catch fisherman."

Same thing with the short magnums, super short magnums, super duper whizz bang magnums... blah blah blah.


I like the quote about the lures, thats funny :D
The Ruger #1 is a terrific rifle, in any caliber :thumbup:

My apologies to the OP. I know we have drifted a little off of your original topic, but its hard not to when talking guns. :D

Let us know what you end up getting, and pictures are always great.
Whichever gun and caliber you get, I hope you have great success with it.

20 years from now, nobody will care what caliber you chose. But the pictures from you hunts and the memories, will be with you forever...
 
I've got another one like that. For some reason, with all of the hunters in my family, I'm the ONLY one who's ever owned a range finder.

So..

At the family farm in Eastern KY (yes, there are mountains down there) at the top of a ridge, there's a large hayfield we call the "J". It's shaped like a J and it's around 220 acres.

One day, I went up there and made a diagram of the field and marked the range from all of the popular spots and stands we have up there, to the point directly across from it, and to the side of each spot. I shot a coyote while I was up there.

The next day we were all talking about the field. I told them where I shot the coyote. One of the cousins said "Damn that's a good shot. It's at least 500 yds from the curve of the J to the end of the of the short part of the field." I started laughing and showed everyone my chart. That particular point was actually 289 yds long. My shot was 275 yds. The longest spot on the field was just at 597 yds. They'd all thought that area was around 800 yds or more. I made them all a copy.

They suddenly started killing more deer up there. Imagine that!

I generally don't carry the range finder while I'm hunting. I'll take it scouting a few times and make a diagram of the area I'm allowed to hunt with various landmarks and ranges on it. I memorize my diagram, but I also take it with me in case I need it for reference.
 
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