New to knife making, First knife almost finsihed. Have questions.

[slowjett]

Hello,
So a little background. Im a farrier and do bit of smithing for my own needs like making tools and whatever I need. Im working out of a gas fire. I modified an old NC whisper 2 burner forge by firebricking up the front and cutting a side entry port.

I decided to start making blades when I needed a custom gift for each of the members of my wedding party. I decided to make cooking knifes from chainsaw chain. I've never made any sort of Damascus, or blades for that matter before. But I do forge-weld regularly when making horseshoes. Actually welding up the first chain seemed a lot easier than getting a good forge weld on a barshoe.

This is the first knife I've ever made. This is what Ive got done so far as yesterday.

Questions;

Forging; How mny times does one need to fold the chain once flattened out and somewhat squared up? I find Im folding just because I have some spots where the weld is not great so I lap it over 3 inches or so. until I end up with like a 3"x 1/8 x 1 1/4 billet.

Heat Treating; I normalized 3 times, and then hardened. I used 5-30 motor oil. Thats all i had around. I wold like to use Veggy oil next time. So I preheated the oil, and went to dip my knife. I found it very hard to maintain an even heat on the blade. (nextime I plan on using a tube inside the forge to put the knife in to avoid direct flame contact and hot spots.) It took me about 4 tries because the first few times I kept warping the blade on the heat treat, I think it was too hot in some spots. Then I tempered in the oven at 330F for 2 hours. Files skated off knife before temping. After temping the blade flexes slightly when pressed, which is good I think. Does it sound like i did all this correctly? Is there a quicker way to temper? Can I use clay to harden just the cutting edge? If so do I still need to temper?

Finish; I shaped up the blade and got bevel going with my Multi-tool belt grinder (36x2) before heat treating. After heat treating and tempering I used a scotchbright belt to get the scale off. Then a polish belt. But the polish belt left noticable grooves even with the finest rouge I had. Should I use a cloth polish wheel on a 6 inch grinder? Should I have just used Very finesandpaper? Whats the best way to get a good polish? Some of the scratches showed prominently after etching.

Etching; I used ferric chloride from radio shack. The bottle said "Ready to use". The etch came out really dark, I think it was about 4 parts water 1 part FC. Etched for 15 min then rinsed with Ammonia and scrubbed a bit with the scrubby side of a sponge. Veryu dark and dull. Is there a better way to achieve a brighter finish?

Final Sharpening; Now its almost got an edge on it, but I did not want to use the belt grinder to get my sharp edge because I don't want to take the hardness out of the edge. Whats the best way to do the final sharpening? Im thining about order some Norton combo stones (250/1000 4000/8000). Can I just use wet/dry sandpaper for now? Which grits?


Thanks!
Josh

 

[Kunklec]

Welcome. Nice design on the blade. It would probably help you to read the Kevin Cashen posts on how to heat treat different types of steel. I don't have the link handy, but someone else will come up with it , I'm sure.
After hardening, you always have to temper, whether using clay or not.
As far as the finishing, it takes a lot of time. Using any belts will always give you a chance of having dig lines. Practice makes better, not perfect.
Etching generally makes small errors like scratches stand out. If you want a shinier finish, get it before you etch. You can always sand off the etch and improve the surface. Also, dilute your etch some more. I use 10 water to one FC and go slower. You can even use things like vinegar.
Keep at it. You already have some of the basics.
Chip Kunkle

 

[slowjett]

Thanks Chip!
The 10:1 ratio. Would that depend on how 'pre-diluted' my FC is out of the bottle? I dont know how to tell, but I think its a little diluted. I'll experiment and see!

Thanks!
Josh

 

[VaughnT]

For your first knife ever, you sure didn't take the easy route! Hand-hammered chainsaw damascus, and dang good looking too?!! Wow.

Other than that, I don't have anything to add. You're doing great.

 

[slowjett]

Here is the final turnout on my first knife. Very thin blade, shaves just fine. Cuts fruit and veggies on par if not better than with the expensive knifes in the kitchen. Handled in hickory and copper.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

I LOVE the pattern in the blade. Not too keen about the angle of the handle to the blade, but that's just a personal preference. I'd say good job and have fun with the second knife!

 

[tryppyr]

Okay, I'm going to be a bit more brutal. The handle looks sloppy. The copper ring has VERY obvious scars in it, and what looks like J-B Weld epoxy lumpy or oozing out the top. The wood looks cheap and very poorly finished. In short, the handle does not do justice to the blade at all. If it was mine, I'd cut/grind the handle off and start over on that part of the project (just as I did for the first knife I finished, which had different issues, but was also in need of a mulligan).

- Greg

 

[Nebulae]

wow blade is great that is amazing, I especially love the light and dark lines runing around like lightning. but I have to agree with tryppyr the handle is not so good the finish on the wood looks kind tacky. The angle of the handle doesn't bother me because it is going to be used a couple of feet below the user.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

The design is very good. The blade looks good. The handle, while very functional, looks bad. The copper ferrule should have an end cap soldered on. The lacquered oak handle looks amateurish. After looking at the blade, I think you could do a much better handle.

 

[P. McKinley]

Amazing start Josh! The blade has a very refined shape and looks quite useful.

The handle on the other hand........

Take Greg's advice and grind it off and give it another shot. You should consider an oil finish(Tung, Danish, Antique, etc) rather than varnish or lacquer. Your tang looks suitable enough to achieve a handle line off the blade that will look and feel much better. And, I also agree on the ferrule - add a slotted front cap or loose it entirely, or stack on a piece of contrasting wood, antler, metal to the front of the handle.

Congrats on a VERY successful first blade. It'll make for a fine gift.

 

[Patrickknives]

My first knife is a real POS but I love it, yours is better than mine. I think its important to keep these to show progress over the years and to look back where you started. My only suggestion is to put a date somewhere so you will remember when you made it.

 

[slowjett]

Ya bunch of jerks!

Ah just kidding.

Doing the handle was tough for me.

The handle is hickory from a old shoeing hammer, the copper was from a piece of pipe. It actually all looks much better in person. But your right it could use some work! This knife is probably going to stay this way though, save maybe a cap on the ferrule. As far as the urethane on the wood, my first intention was to blacken it in the fire then sand to lighten and finish it and oil it. But, I considered this being a kitchen knife all the washing might do something to the wood unless it was sealed? I guess my hammer handles that I throw in the quench bucket to tighten up are still working eh?

I could really use a good lesson on how to go about making a tang and putting a handle on it properly. On a tang like this where the tang enters inside the handle.

I actually took the tang down a bit from the initial post. Just a little. The angle felt right and the knife works and feels really good. Next time I will make it a bit more inline.

The ferrule. Yeah its got some marks in it. It was such a bitch to make I thought I'd just chalk it up to nostalgia. An end cap, I want to do this but couldn't wrap my head around how. I would like to make the ferrule material out of something else next time. What should it be made from?

Any help, threads, videos or articles you could point me toward would be most helpful!

Thanks again!
Josh

 

[tryppyr]

First off, Josh, let me start by saying that if I were you I would look for advice to come from a more seasoned knife maker than me. I'm still in that early experimental stage where I'm willing to follow bad ideas just to see if I can make them work. That said, since I was one of the first to jump in with criticism, I will try to offer some help. I don't have a video or a book, and I have only a little experience... so take it for what it's worth.

A knife handle is not the same as a hammer handle. Though they both serve the same basic purpose of providing a place for fingers to grip the tool, beyond that they serve different purposes. A knife handle should essentially make the fingers fall into place in such a way that the knife is well balanced, and angled properly for the job that knife was designed to perform. Secondly, the knife handle should also be designed to help prevent the fingers from moving into a place where they come into contact with the razor sharp edge. In short, you need to think about the design of the handle before you move toward executing it.

Once you have an idea of what the shape should be, I recommend you think about what look you want to achieve. Consider the shape of the knife and any patterns visible in it. Think about what kinds of materials would look good with that... think about colors, textures, and think about weight and durability as well.

Let's say you decide on a certain kind of wood. Get a rectangular block of it and draw the outline of the design you came up with on the block. Once you are satisfied, lay the tang of the knife on the block and look at how it fits with the design you've drawn. If it seems to create the right line from the spine of the blade to the top of the handle, use a pencil to trace the edge of the tang onto the block.

If you are satisfied with the layout, transfer the entry point from the side of the block to the top edge by measuring the distances from the top and bottom of the entry point to the edge of the block and mark the center of the edge of the block at the same measured distances. This will tell you where to drill the shaft. Drill the shaft before you start shaping the block. The hole does not need to be as wide as the tang. It does need to be well centered and angled correctly, otherwise the blade will come out of the handle at an odd angle. This is why you want to lay it out in advance, so you can determine such things as the angle of entry.

After you have drilled the shaft, try inserting the tang into the shaft to insure the drill didn't go astray. If it did, you can correct that by filing the hole out a little more to allow the tang to move in the needed direction. This is another reason for not making the hole big enough for the entire tang... it allows you to make fitting adjustments with hand tools (like needle files).

Once you are satisifed with the fit of the blade into the block you begin shaping the block. Cut away the larger chunks that are not part of the design, leaving some room at the edges of the design. Then sand away the rest of the excess material.

I've seen other methods demonstrated (including burning the tang into the handle), but I've never used those methods. There are videos and tutorials available on this site, but I can't tell you where they are.

- Greg

 

[Dixieblade57]

Josh

OK I have got to say this, I still consider myself a newb at knife building! While I commend you for taking on a challenge as your first knife, that I have yet to even consider,damascus. I will also give your design a big hand!

Everyone has jumped onto the handle aspect of this knife. The handle is common for a first attempt. It is what would be commonly called a user in polite circles.

However when I look at the photos of the blade I see a bigger problem. There is a problem in the tang of the knife. About a 1/2" up into the tang there is an, (crack, inclusion, flaw) that could potentially lead to a failure of the tang in this knife. Maybe I am seeing something that is not there since no one else has mentioned this problem. But if it is what I think it is, the area will allow for the stress to be transferred across the tang until eventually there is a failure.

 

[slowjett]

However when I look at the photos of the blade I see a bigger problem. There is a problem in the tang of the knife. About a 1/2" up into the tang there is an, (crack, inclusion, flaw) that could potentially lead to a failure of the tang in this knife. Maybe I am seeing something that is not there since no one else has mentioned this problem. But if it is what I think it is, the area will allow for the stress to be transferred across the tang until eventually there is a failure.

It was more of a bade weld on the edge than an inclusion. Its really not goign to effect the strength of tang, as the tang was thick then the blade and there is plenty of metal still there.

 

[amcardon]

Personally I think you should definitely leave it as is. This is your first knife, it's not supposed to be perfect! This is supposed to be a learning experience and I think this knife is right on the money. Keep it around and keep it out so you can see it. Remember the things people are suggesting on here and take what you like and apply it to your next knife. As it is this should serve you well for a long time and I think you should be dang proud of it.

As for the finish of the steel I would recommend using/making a blade clamp and a piece of barstock like a lot of guys do and finish it with sandpaper around the barstock. If you have a steady hand I don't see why you shouldn't be able to take it to 400 or so on the belts after heat treat, dipping in water every pass to keep its temper, and then finish on paper with cutting fluid (some use WD40, some mobil-1, some water...) and take it up to 2000 since you're going to etch. Fit and finish always seem to really indicate your experience and effort that went into the knife.

For the style of knife, if you make another similar to it, can I suggest an antler handle? I just think that would look fantastic with the patternwelded steel... Just my $0.02!

Oh, and last thing, change your profile so it says where you're at, maybe there's a smith nearby who can give you a couple pointers and you can learn from his and your mistakes and be even more satisfied with #2 and all those that will follow.

Keep it up, Brother!

 

[slowjett]

tryppyr;

Thanks for the writeup!

The hammer handle was basically worked exactly how you described. I started with a large piece that just happened to come from a hammer handle, then drilled a hole down the center, then shaped the handle. The hole I drilled was too large though. I used filler wood to make the handle fit before the epoxy pour.


Im not sure a ferrule is even necisarry. But i;d like to find a way to make them. I got like 3 weeks to make 6 knifes. I wonder if I can get it done. I have one billet formed right now. I need to make some more.

 

[slowjett]

Thanks Amcardon! I have to admit I've got to whack out about 6 of these things in 3 weeks. So Im going to find a sort of general way to handle them for kitchen use that wont be too complicated and will look good. I plan to make them all out of chainsaw chain. Hand forged, I might need a striker.

Im in western mass. I tried to buy a Little Giant power hammer today for short money. The guy lives close and it has a broken motor. He told me If I help him fix it, he wont sell it yet but I can use his shop anytime! I might go check it out tomorrow.

-josh

 

[richard j]

get a cap used to plug the end of copper pipe to make the ferrule from. you' ll have to measure where to cut the slot so everything lines up.

 

[Kenon Rain]

I've got to be really brutally honest with you mate...


That is one hell of a first knife! Beats my first to absolute dust.. So what if there's a few new guy mistakes.. its something to look back on in the future.. Someone told me once that time should be spent making new things instead of trying to fix older ones.. and I think this holds very true in the knifemaking world.