New to New York and need some advice

Joined
Jul 26, 2009
Messages
314
I've just moved to New York (nassau county) and I am trying rather unsuccessfully to find out what I may and may not carry legally.

I've come from the UK, so the laws will actually be less restrictive here!

So far I have come up with a lot of conflicting advice, the laws for NY State and NY City seem to be different, and I'd really appreciate if someone would spell them out for me so I don't inadvertently commit a crime.

So far, it seems that the blade must be 4" or under, and depending what I read may or may not be a locking blade.
I have also read to be careful of blades with loose pivots because they may be interpreted as a 'gravity knife'.
Also I don't seem to be able to find out whether assisted openers are legal to carry here?
 
Yes NYC is a different world. I would stay away from all automatics,AO, gravity .I know some of these are illegal but don't know the details.Read the websites detailing the laws and don't take info from individuals unless they practice law in NY state. The old law was basically a 4" blade 'unless you need something bigger' meaning use a machete if you're cutting brush etc.I always carry a knife [close to 60 years now !] but not for defense .For that there are guns !!
 
Welcome to America! and welcome to Bladeforums :)

I'm going to move this to Knife Laws. There are complications in NY laws because the past few years have seen a tightening of interpretations of the old terms. A few basics for NYC:

Blade must be UNDER 4".
No autos, gravity, or ballistic knives.
Knife must be concealed. Not even the clip can be visible.

Now the problem. The term gravity knife has become widened to include any knife that can have its blade flung open to lock in place, even by the most ridiculous inertial gyrations of the officer.

This in effect makes any one-hand opener with a lock illegal. For example, the Spyderco Urban is legal because the blade doesn't lock upon opening. Slipjoints and most Swiss Army Knives are legal.
 
As a practical matter, I would suggest something like a Swiss Army Knife until you settle in and see how your local police behave. We have a former NYC officer who is more familiar with that and is probably the best source we have for these questions, tom19176.

The truth is, I am very circumspect in New York City these days even though the police there basically don't even see me, and never did, all the years I lived there. Some people always attract attention though. :)
 
I have looked for legal info, but although I have found the actual laws for NY, I am loath to follow them blindly because they are rather vague.

As an example, the law in the UK states that the blade must be under 3" in length and capable of folding.
Unfortunately, there is a legal precedent where a judge interpreted this to mean 'capable of folding during use'.
It doesn't take a law degree to realise that this is not what the law meant, but the legal precedent was set and now any type of locking mechanism on a folder makes it a fixed blade in the eyes of the law.

I carried my crkt M16 in the UK every day for over a year before I joined a British knife forum and discovered to my horror that I would have gone to prison if I had been caught with it.

While I was looking for NY laws, I happened across a legal case in which a police officer stood in court attempting to open a knife with a flick of the wrist, to prove that it was a 'gravity knife'.
He was unsuccessful at first, but managed it eventually and thus 'proved' that it was a gravity knife.

I really don't want to fall foul of something this ridiculous, so I want to be very careful to check for hidden legal precedent before I carry anything more than an SAK.

Are there any members here who live in NY State and if so, what is your EDC?
 
While I was looking for NY laws, I happened across a legal case in which a police officer stood in court attempting to open a knife with a flick of the wrist, to prove that it was a 'gravity knife'.
He was unsuccessful at first, but managed it eventually and thus 'proved' that it was a gravity knife.

That's the problem. They can now hold a Spyderco, for example, by the opening hole, and snap their arm outward, and if the handle opens away from the blade -- which it will -- you're toast.
 
Esav Benyamin, thanks for your reply, you must have sent it as I was typing my last one.
Please forgive the n00b for not posting in the correct forum :D

Are those laws applicable to NYC or NY State, or both?
I know NYC has much stricter laws than the rest of the state.

I'm in Oyster bay, Nassau County so I'm hoping the laws are less stringent here.
It already looks like I don't have a hope in hell of getting a CCW, please tell me I can at least carry a knife that won't close on my fingers if I try to cut up a cardboard box :(
 
Many places in NYS are generous enough with CCW, just not NYC. Check with your local precinct -- police station. They will have the requirements available and the forms you would have to fill out.

I'm really not familiar with current NYS knife allowances. I lived in NYC most of my life until 1997. In those days, I carried what I pleased without any problem. Even on the job. (OK, I was the boss, what could they say? :p)
 
James, welcome to the USA and Nassau! NYC is the only one with a blade lenght spelled out in the law(under 4"). As you have been told, NYC has come to view any flickable knife as a gravity knife. This is been held valid under case law and it is a state law, although most places do not enforce it that way. I live in Nassau myself and the officers here tend to be more knife friendly, BUT many are former NYC officers and a bad attitude can make them remember how they enforced the law when in NYC ( remember it is a state law). You can use a pocket clip or belt sheath everywhere but NYC, however, if it is in plain sight an officer can ask to examine it, and there is no NYS crime for concealled carry of a knife, so why show it off???? There are a few good knife stores in Nassau....visit them !
 
Thanks for the warm welcome :D
I guess it's pretty much the same here as anywhere regarding police officers, the overwhelming majority of them are reasonable people and as long as you don't give them a hard time they'll reciprocate.
I have a couple of LEO friends back in the UK and I asked them about the knife carry laws.
They admitted that the law about locking blades was rather ambiguous.
They both said (unofficially of course) that if they found a locking blade knife on someone who was obviously not a criminal then they would be lenient, explain the law and tell them to leave it at home in future.

I haven't been here long and thus don't have a car yet, so I haven't managed to visit any knife stores, but I will be doing so as soon as I can!

As to the CCW, I'm not holding out too much hope right now.
NY is unusual in that technically anyone who owns a handgun can carry it, because the permit covers both. Unfortunately, some counties place their own restrictions upon the permit and limit them to hunting or business etc.
I have to wait for my permanent resident paperwork to come through and then I can apply for a pistol permit, which I believe takes six months to process.
I'm pretty sure when I do get it, it will be restricted to hunting/target use but we'll see.
 
That's the problem. They can now hold a Spyderco, for example, by the opening hole, and snap their arm outward, and if the handle opens away from the blade -- which it will -- you're toast.

This seems to be a little perverse, as (with the exception of the 'spyder drop' you described) it would be much easier/faster to use a thumb stud, flipper, or both hands to open the knife.

If the law is to outlaw knives that can be opened quickly like a switchblade, then why are thumbstuds, flippers etc legal?
I can open my crkt M16 so fast that it is indistinguishable from a switchblade, yet the firm ball detent coupled with the light weight of the parts makes it impossible (for me at least) to open by a flick of the wrist.
 
Knife laws are not rational. They are a political reaction to an emotional reaction, a kind of "see what I'm doing to protect you". New York is trying to discourage knife carry without actually changing the law, just reinterpreting the enforcement.
 
Yup, sounds like the UK.
The media in the UK has decided that we are in the middle of some kind of knife crime frenzy so I guess they have to be seen to be doing something about it.

I just found something very interesting about balisongs:

http://www.mcacp.org/issue53.htm

I'm sure it's too good to be true, but I think a balisong would be my ideal carry knife so it might be worth looking into...
 
Butterfly knives are classified as "dangerous knives", as their design is suited solely for use as a weapon, or so the courts/NYPD legal dept have held.
 
Yeah, I knew it was wishful thinking :rolleyes:

It's a shame, because balisongs have a lot going for them as utility knives.
A well made one can be almost as good as having a fixed blade.
 
James, do you have a link to the case where the officer was allowed to try the gravity knife several times before it worked? I know this has happened, but lately it seems the judges have been more forgiving (in Brooklyn) as to how easily a knife has to open to be a gravity knife. As far as the pistol license goes in Nasau, a target will be the most you can get. I know a NYC officer who lives in Nassau, and left the police force for six months ( he then returned when the job he took did not meet his expertations), and he went to the Nassau PD to get his carry permit while he was off the PD, and was told they would only issue a carry permit to someone who was a officer for 15 years or more!!!
 
New York State prohibits carrying a knife with the intent to use the same unlawfully against another. In short, you should have a legal reason for carrying a knife. If that reason can be job related, even better.

There must be two elements proven: (1) possession of a dangerous knife (defined below from case law) and (2) intent to use unlawfully against another. Regarding intent to use, case law notes that:

Of course, that a knife is dangerous does not alone make out a charge of fourth-degree criminal possession of a weapon, since the statute makes criminal a dangerous knife only when possessed with intent to use it unlawfully against another. But “[t]he possession by any person of any dagger, dirk, stiletto, dangerous knife or any other weapon, instrument, appliance or substance designed, made or adapted for use primarily as a weapon, is presumptive evidence of intent to use the same unlawfully against another” (Penal Law § 265.15[4] ). Thus, by alleging facts of an evidentiary character which, if true, establish that defendant possessed a dangerous knife, the information sufficiently pleads, based on the statutory presumption, that he possessed a weapon with the requisite criminal intent.

Coming here from the UK I am not sure if this is applicable, but I underlined subsection 5 below which eliminates the intent to use unlawfully element for non US citizens.

Here is the NY Statute:

§ 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when:

(1) He or she possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, plastic knuckles, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or slungshot, shirken or “Kung Fu star”; or

(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another; or

(3) He or she knowingly has in his or her possession a rifle, shotgun or firearm in or upon a building or grounds, used for educational purposes, of any school, college or university, except the forestry lands, wherever located, owned and maintained by the State University of New York college of environmental science and forestry, or upon a school bus as defined in section one hundred forty-two of the vehicle and traffic law, without the written authorization of such educational institution; or

(4) He possesses a rifle or shotgun and has been convicted of a felony or serious offense; or

(5) He possesses any dangerous or deadly weapon and is not a citizen of the United States; or

(6) He is a person who has been certified not suitable to possess a rifle or shotgun, as defined in subdivision sixteen of section 265.00, and refuses to yield possession of such rifle or shotgun upon the demand of a police officer. Whenever a person is certified not suitable to possess a rifle or shotgun, a member of the police department to which such certification is made, or of the state police, shall forthwith seize any rifle or shotgun possessed by such person. A rifle or shotgun seized as herein provided shall not be destroyed, but shall be delivered to the headquarters of such police department, or state police, and there retained until the aforesaid certificate has been rescinded by the director or physician in charge, or other disposition of such rifle or shotgun has been ordered or authorized by a court of competent jurisdiction.

(7) He knowingly possesses a bullet containing an explosive substance designed to detonate upon impact.

(8) He possesses any armor piercing ammunition with intent to use the same unlawfully against another.

Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor.

Notable exceptions:

Possession of a switchblade or gravity knife for use while hunting, trapping or fishing by a person carrying a valid license issued to him pursuant to section 11-0713 of the environmental conservation law.

A “dangerous knife” is “a knife which may be characterized as a weapon” ( Matter of Jamie D ). A “weapon,” in turn, is “an instrument of offensive or defensive combat” ( id.). Thus, although some knives may satisfy the test of dangerousness by virtue of their “inherent characteristics,” a knife not necessarily designed for combative use “may nonetheless be determined to fall within the statutory prescription when the circumstances of its possession including the behavior of its possessor demonstrate that the possessor himself considered it a weapon” ( id. at 591; see also Matter of Sean R ). Accordingly, a knife “designed and primarily intended for use as [a] utilitarian utensil [ ]” will be deemed dangerous within the meaning of the statute when either it has been converted by physical modification into a weapon or the circumstances of its possession “may permit a finding that on the occasion of its possession it was essentially a weapon rather than a utensil” ( Jamie D., 59 ). People v. Richards, 22 Misc.3d 798, 869 N.Y.S.2d 731
 
The originator of this thread asked about NY State but there has been some discussion regarding NY City, so I decide to post the City ordinance separately. Here it is with relevant sections underlined:

§ 10-133 Possession of knives or instruments. a. Legislative findings.
It is hereby declared and found that the possession in public places,
streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public
health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the
possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has
resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and
assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition
encourages and fosters the commission of crimes, and contributes to
juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the
possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city
of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger
of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to
public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that
the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while
such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and
threatening to the public and should be prohibited.
b. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person
or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street, or
park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.
c. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or
park, to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any
knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless
such person is actually
using such knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of
this section.
d. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this section shall not
apply to (1) persons in the military service of the state of New York
when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations
issued by the chief of staff to the governor; (2) police officers and
peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3)
participants in special events when authorized by the police
commissioner; (4) persons in the military or other service of the United
States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; (5)
emergency medical technicians or voluntary or paid ambulance drivers
while engaged in the performance of their duties; or (6) any person
displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this
section when such knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately
to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping,
hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily
requiring the use of such knife
; or (b) is displayed or carried by a
member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para-military unit
or veterans organization, to, from, or during a meeting, parade or other
performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the
carrying of such knife; or (c) is being transported directly to or from
a place of purchase, sharpening or repair, packaged in such a manner as
not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d)
is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl
Scouts of America or a similar organization or society and such display
or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such
organization or society.
 
James, do you have a link to the case where the officer was allowed to try the gravity knife several times before it worked? I know this has happened, but lately it seems the judges have been more forgiving (in Brooklyn) as to how easily a knife has to open to be a gravity knife. As far as the pistol license goes in Nasau, a target will be the most you can get. I know a NYC officer who lives in Nassau, and left the police force for six months ( he then returned when the job he took did not meet his expertations), and he went to the Nassau PD to get his carry permit while he was off the PD, and was told they would only issue a carry permit to someone who was a officer for 15 years or more!!!

I'm sorry, I don't remember where I saw it, I happened across it while looking for relevant knife laws. I looked in my history to no avail.

I do remember that it said that even though the officer failed to open it with a flick of the wrist on his first attempt, the decision to classify it as a gravity knife was upheld.
 
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