New to New York and need some advice

New York State prohibits carrying a knife with the intent to use the same unlawfully against another. In short, you should have a legal reason for carrying a knife. If that reason can be job related, even better.

There must be two elements proven: (1) possession of a dangerous knife (defined below from case law) and (2) intent to use unlawfully against another. Regarding intent to use, case law notes that:

Of course, that a knife is dangerous does not alone make out a charge of fourth-degree criminal possession of a weapon, since the statute makes criminal a dangerous knife only when possessed with intent to use it unlawfully against another. But “[t]he possession by any person of any dagger, dirk, stiletto, dangerous knife or any other weapon, instrument, appliance or substance designed, made or adapted for use primarily as a weapon, is presumptive evidence of intent to use the same unlawfully against another” (Penal Law § 265.15[4] ). Thus, by alleging facts of an evidentiary character which, if true, establish that defendant possessed a dangerous knife, the information sufficiently pleads, based on the statutory presumption, that he possessed a weapon with the requisite criminal intent.

Coming here from the UK I am not sure if this is applicable, but I underlined subsection 5 below which eliminates the intent to use unlawfully element for non US citizens.

Here is the NY Statute:

§ 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when:

(1) He or she possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, plastic knuckles, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or slungshot, shirken or “Kung Fu star”; or

(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another; or

(3) He or she knowingly has in his or her possession a rifle, shotgun or firearm in or upon a building or grounds, used for educational purposes, of any school, college or university, except the forestry lands, wherever located, owned and maintained by the State University of New York college of environmental science and forestry, or upon a school bus as defined in section one hundred forty-two of the vehicle and traffic law, without the written authorization of such educational institution; or

(4) He possesses a rifle or shotgun and has been convicted of a felony or serious offense; or

(5) He possesses any dangerous or deadly weapon and is not a citizen of the United States; or

(6) He is a person who has been certified not suitable to possess a rifle or shotgun, as defined in subdivision sixteen of section 265.00, and refuses to yield possession of such rifle or shotgun upon the demand of a police officer. Whenever a person is certified not suitable to possess a rifle or shotgun, a member of the police department to which such certification is made, or of the state police, shall forthwith seize any rifle or shotgun possessed by such person. A rifle or shotgun seized as herein provided shall not be destroyed, but shall be delivered to the headquarters of such police department, or state police, and there retained until the aforesaid certificate has been rescinded by the director or physician in charge, or other disposition of such rifle or shotgun has been ordered or authorized by a court of competent jurisdiction.

(7) He knowingly possesses a bullet containing an explosive substance designed to detonate upon impact.

(8) He possesses any armor piercing ammunition with intent to use the same unlawfully against another.

Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor.

Notable exceptions:

Possession of a switchblade or gravity knife for use while hunting, trapping or fishing by a person carrying a valid license issued to him pursuant to section 11-0713 of the environmental conservation law.

A “dangerous knife” is “a knife which may be characterized as a weapon” ( Matter of Jamie D ). A “weapon,” in turn, is “an instrument of offensive or defensive combat” ( id.). Thus, although some knives may satisfy the test of dangerousness by virtue of their “inherent characteristics,” a knife not necessarily designed for combative use “may nonetheless be determined to fall within the statutory prescription when the circumstances of its possession including the behavior of its possessor demonstrate that the possessor himself considered it a weapon” ( id. at 591; see also Matter of Sean R ). Accordingly, a knife “designed and primarily intended for use as [a] utilitarian utensil [ ]” will be deemed dangerous within the meaning of the statute when either it has been converted by physical modification into a weapon or the circumstances of its possession “may permit a finding that on the occasion of its possession it was essentially a weapon rather than a utensil” ( Jamie D., 59 ). People v. Richards, 22 Misc.3d 798, 869 N.Y.S.2d 731

Hmm, that's odd. You don't even need to be a US citizen to own a firearm, in fact in states that allow CCW, permanent residency is adequate (at least in all states that I have checked)

In the last part, it says that a dangerous knife is one that can be characterised as a weapon, so I guess as long as the knife can't be considered to be a weapon, you don't need to be a US citizen to carry it.
This is all very vague.....
 
and he went to the Nassau PD to get his carry permit while he was off the PD, and was told they would only issue a carry permit to someone who was a officer for 15 years or more!!!
The reason is that 15 years is the number set in the LEOSA (commonly HR218) as the minimum time in that qualifies somebody as a retired LEO guaranteed national carry (assuming he's not a prohibited person and left the department while in good standing). The Nassau County PD suggests the possibility of full carry licenses for "propper cause" (based on the "totality of the facts and circumstances pertaining to the applicants need for personal protection"). The fact that an ex-LEO would not be granted a full carry license sounds like sour grapes.
 
Last edited:
In the last part, it says that a dangerous knife is one that can be characterised as a weapon, so I guess as long as the knife can't be considered to be a weapon, you don't need to be a US citizen to carry it.

I would agree with that conclusion.
 
jurisprudence, if you don't mind me asking what is your legal background ( I am a former NYC LEO)? Are you a LEO or lawyer?
Thanks Tom.
 
No jokes. I felt the lawyer in you in your wording !!! That is not a bad thing. I just wanted to understand your view, as depending on where you come from in the different levels of the criminal justice system, you tend to see things differently. I worked the bad parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan, and the ways of the street determine who is someone you would arrest and someone you would just warn when it comes to weapons. In the 80s everyone from the old lady to the teen carried a knife, and it would be very easy to have ruined several lives with a weapons arrest. In that time, an officer would have been laughed out of the station house for a knife only arrest, but today it is considered a good arrest in response to a spike in robberies. The transit division actively goes after knife collars. The part I most dislike in weapons cases involving a knife, is when viewing a knife on the judge's bench, they all look evil, however the same table full of knives at a show would make us all drool....The sterile nature of the court room leads to a method of thinking that often does not relate to the real word we encounter daily. The other part that I consider very improper, is the lack of enforcement against the sale of both dangerous knives and gravity knives. Let me explain. If you caught a drug user, you would work him to find his dealer, and the dealer to find his supplier. A teen with a pistol was in trouble, but he could be worked with to find out where he obtained the firearm, and if there was a source to be gone after. With knives, every big box store, sporting goods store, fishing, bait shop, hardware store openly sells knives that would be viewed as gravity knives or dangerous knives in court, BUT no one goes after their illegal sale. The public is mis lead to believe they are legal to own and carry since they are openly sold in large reputable stores. I guess my only lawyer joke would be to ask why this is allowed. Timing is everything as tomorrow I have a 4 pm meeting with the Brooklyn DA on issues on shopping malls I run in Brooklyn, perhaps I will ask him, since the Target in one of them sells knives that would get you that ride in the bach seat if you had it on you when entering the subway....
 
Last edited:
Tom, having the practical, on the ground, perspective of an LEO is very important. I worked in a prosecutor's office when in law school, but have moved on to corporate law. I am just reviewing statutes and case law for purposes of this forum to provide the members the basics. Most cases I review involving knives have some foundational charge and a CCW is added, but not always. There is tons of misinformation on the internet and we all should have the facts. I get a lot of great opinions from this forum, so I hope to do my share to contribute valuable information.
 
Thanks for the response...I was correcting spelling and may have added something since you posted. I now work for the second largest real estate firm in NYC running their retail division and I have a great time reviewing my ideas with the 25+ lawyers that work there...lol...I think we are on the same page my freind.
 
I did not get to bring up the sale of "illegal" knives with the DA as Target had their people there to address shop lifting issues, and since they are a tenant, I did not feel it was the correct thing to do. I did talk to the Target people about it, and they promised to check and remove from sale the knives in question. We shall see....
 
James, do you have a link to the case where the officer was allowed to try the gravity knife several times before it worked? I know this has happened, but lately it seems the judges have been more forgiving (in Brooklyn) as to how easily a knife has to open to be a gravity knife. As far as the pistol license goes in Nasau, a target will be the most you can get. I know a NYC officer who lives in Nassau, and left the police force for six months ( he then returned when the job he took did not meet his expertations), and he went to the Nassau PD to get his carry permit while he was off the PD, and was told they would only issue a carry permit to someone who was a officer for 15 years or more!!!

Really? My uncle has a Carry Permit in Nassau County, and he was never a cop.
 
tambrico, when was it issued? They use to be far more liberal with issueing them. They still issue for certain conditions outside of law enforcement, but those are looked at closer than ever before now...Many Target permit holder in Nassau use to always carry as they were allowed to carry to and from the range with it loaded and concealed years back ( not sure if this is still in effect), but there were two indoor gun ranges that gave their members a key to the range as a way of them being able to say they were on their way to the range...This may have cahnged in recent years.
 
I would agree with that conclusion.

The trouble lies in what knives can be characterised as a weapon.
I guess things like switchblades etc are automatically considered dangerous knives because they are specifically mentioned in the law.
I'm also guessing that any knife that is used as a weapon, brandished inappropriately or used to threaten someone would automatically become a weapon.
This is also true of anything else that can be pressed into service as a weapon, bottle, rock, piece of wood etc.

Am I right in thinking that an ordinary knife would not generally be considered a weapon unless misused?
 
tambrico, when was it issued? They use to be far more liberal with issueing them. They still issue for certain conditions outside of law enforcement, but those are looked at closer than ever before now...Many Target permit holder in Nassau use to always carry as they were allowed to carry to and from the range with it loaded and concealed years back ( not sure if this is still in effect), but there were two indoor gun ranges that gave their members a key to the range as a way of them being able to say they were on their way to the range...This may have cahnged in recent years.

I can't speak for Nassau specifically, but there are other counties that are known for (normally) only issueing target/hunting restricted licenses have also been known for allowing people to maintain full carry licenses when they transfer their license into a county from a previous county that issued them full carry.

Tambrico, Could he have a restricted business carry license?

While very unlikely, it is within the realm of possibility that he does have a full carry license issued by Nassau, issued because he was able to document being in extraordinary danger (I forget the exact wording). Maybe he has friends in the right places.

According to the pistol license handbook, Nassau County still allows target/hunting restricted licensees to carry loaded to and from the range or legal hunting area.
1. Target/Hunting License
A Carry License, which is stamped “Target,” restricts the
licensee to carrying a loaded firearm to and from a range for
recreational or competitive shooting, or for hunting, where legal in
New York State, except when traveling through New York City, (the
firearm must be unloaded and transported in a secure metal box, with
no stops within the confines of New York City.)
The interesting thing is that different counties have different takes on when they o-k their target/hunting restricted licensees carrying. Suffolk, for example, specifically allows target/hunting restricted licensees to carry while stopping for non-alcoholic drinks or to/ while car-pooling to/from the range.

There has been a lot of question over the years about what legal weight the restrictions have, whether the restrictions may or may not be made in the first place. This stems out of Sec. 400.00(2)(F) of the Penal Law which says that (referring to cause/carry licenses; which the hunting/target restricted licenses are)
have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;
The courts have affirmed the authority to restrict and the authority to revoke at any time. However People v. Parker (52 N.Y.2d 935 1981)makes it very clear that carrying out of restriction is not grounds for criminal prosecution (though the issuing authority retains the sua sponte right to revoke). Here is the text of Parker.
Defendant, who had license entitling him to possess his pistol at his home, was entitled to dismissal of indictment charging him solely with crime of criminal possession of weapon in the second degree based on his possession of loaded firearm with intent to use same unlawfully against another in light of statutory exemption which specifically provides that statutes pertaining to criminal possession of weapons do not apply to “possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license therefor has been issued.” (Per curiam adoption of dissenting opinion of Birns, J., 70 A.D.2d 387, 421 N.Y.S.2d 59.) Penal Law §§ 265.03, 400.00, subd. 2.


*936 **347 Order reversed and order of Supreme Court, New York County, dismissing the indictment reinstated for the reasons stated in the dissenting opinion of Harold Birns, J., at the Appellate Division (70 A.D.2d 387, 391-394, 421 N.Y.S.2d 59).
(As a note- the New York County (Manhattan) grand jury failed to return an indictment for any charges against Lincoln Parker except for CPW 2d. The arrest came out of an incident in which Parker pointed his pistol at his girlfriend in the street.) Tom- you may know better than I---> I am interpreting the mention that Lincoln's permit was residence restricted as saying that Lincoln had a Premisis Permit. Would that be an accurate interpretation?

All that said, NASSAU TAKES A VERY HARD LINE ON SUSPENDING AND REVOKING PERMITS FOR CARRYING OUT OF RESTRICTION. OTHER COUNTIES LIKELY DO THE SAME. DOING SUCH ISA VERY BAD IDEA
 
Last edited:
NYC has a few classes of permits. The premsis which must remain at the location listed and can only be removed once a year for target practice after a wriiten letter has been obtained stateing you have been granted that permission( it must be carried unloaded in a locked metal box to and from the range). A target permit allows anytime carry to and from the range (and hunting upstate) but it must be unloaded and in a locked box as above. There is then a fully carry ( retired LEOs) and restricted carry ( usally to and from place of business and while working on job-payroll guard, armored car driver, etc). I totally agree that if you had a traget permit and were caight carring the pistol loaded, the worst that could happen would be a revoked permit. That said there are officer's that would take you in to see how it goes....
 
tambrico, when was it issued? They use to be far more liberal with issueing them. They still issue for certain conditions outside of law enforcement, but those are looked at closer than ever before now...Many Target permit holder in Nassau use to always carry as they were allowed to carry to and from the range with it loaded and concealed years back ( not sure if this is still in effect), but there were two indoor gun ranges that gave their members a key to the range as a way of them being able to say they were on their way to the range...This may have cahnged in recent years.

Oh really? Yeah he got it like 35 years ago.
 
This seems to be a little perverse, as (with the exception of the 'spyder drop' you described) it would be much easier/faster to use a thumb stud, flipper, or both hands to open the knife.

If the law is to outlaw knives that can be opened quickly like a switchblade, then why are thumbstuds, flippers etc legal?
I can open my crkt M16 so fast that it is indistinguishable from a switchblade, yet the firm ball detent coupled with the light weight of the parts makes it impossible (for me at least) to open by a flick of the wrist.

I spend a ton of time in Manhattan and got CRKT M16 (the tanto w/veff serrations) because it was under 4' , but don't regularly carry it because it looks so aggressive compared to a SAK and I have been stopped and searched twice by Union Sq. It now sits near my compact emergency stuff.
 
nydude, any reason you were stopped and searched? Did they fill out a 250 ( White form that is the size of a ticket) ?
 
nydude, any reason you were stopped and searched? Did they fill out a 250 ( White form that is the size of a ticket) ?

not really. both times was the same deal, same spot. I was wearing track pants and carrying a medium size gym bag, obviously coming from the gym. they usually have a table set up with a couple of officers. they asked politely to look in the bag, you open it like your going into a movie theater, they glance in not touching anything and wave you along.

no paperwork and they have never been particularly intrusive, though there is a general awareness that they are their looking for stuff out of the ordinary. A few years ago,.. post 9/11, they put up signs in the subway that people should be prepared for random bag searches. It's a bit lousy for obvious reasons, however being a born an bred Manhattanite, who doesn't intend to leave, I do want to feel that someone is watching out for the big stuff and I'm sure everyone knows what I mean by that.
 
They've been doing a bag search at the front door of the Amer. Mus. of Natural History for years now, too. Those museum guards doing it. There's also a sign about metal detectors, bu I saw those two arches down a side hallway literally collecting dust.
 
nydude, OK the subway random check points. Got it. I thought you were stopped and frisked and questioned, which happened to over 500,000 people last year in NYC....Esav, I made a few hundred arrest in and around that museum, as the Friday and Saturday lazer light shows were a drugs selling haven and lots of fights and drinking in the park....those were the days back in the 80s. Now I hear it is quite and they have unarmed contract guards instead of the PD in there. There is a ton of very valuable stuff in that place too....
 
Back
Top