New Trends in Folders.....

To Les,

You have listed several good comments regarding trends in your original post however I just don't agree with your ideas regarding factory collaborations. I seems my response has hit a sore spot which was not my intention. It is clear you are biased towards production knives and have no interest in this category whatsover. It is also clear that you make your living on custom knives. I on the other hand have a love for both custom and production knives and yes, I make my living on production knives. Also for the record I get out plenty.

I am not hiding the fact that collaborations are popular and it's true that everyone wants to get in on the action. My point is not everyone can do it successfully. If a factory is truly interested in collaborations they should go to the Guild Show to meet more makers and see more designs however very few do. Probably because they don't have enough insight to know what to look for. Again my point is just because a custom maker designed it and it's tactical does not mean it will sell for a factory. Since today's consumer has so many good knives to choose from, if the factory-custom design is not made well and marketed correctly it will fail. The fact that everyone wants to get in on this trend is a "Me Too" business approach. "Me Too's" that enter the market late finish late.

Your earlier comments point that you feel collaborations are bad for makers in the long run. I have yet to meet a maker that has done a collaboration with a reputable factory and regrets it. In fact I have met a few makers with current collaborations that want to do another one.

The main focus for custom makers is to create new and exciting designs and mechanisms that are very best they can achieve for their skill level. Production companies on the other hand tend to focus their attention on manufacturing, marketing and distribution. It is therefore only natural for production companies to incorporate custom maker designs and innovations into their products and to compensate the maker for their contributions. If this is handled in a fair businesslike manner the maker, the production company and the consumer all benefit.

No hard feelings Les. You are entitled to your opinions just as I am entitled to mine.


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Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.

David Bloch,
President

Visit our new web site at http://www.outdooredge.com



[This message has been edited by David Bloch (edited 14 August 1999).]
 
David,

You didnt hit a sore spot. I was just pointing out all of the factories that are contacting custom knife makers. They do this for the same reasons you do:

Name recognition, R&D costs and marketing survey costs are reduced substantially.

As you state just because a custom maker is involved does not mean the knife will sell. This is true. However, it appears that most factories are willing to take a chance on this.

As we all know with factory knives the main concern is the bottom line. It doesnt matter what the knife is. If the profit margin slips the knife is discontinued. But this has to happen with factory knives. All the people involved have to be paid, in some cases stock/share holders have to get a dividend, bills have to be paid.

Most custom knife makers do everything themselves. While they have bills to pay, the only other people they have to answer are their customers.

David, as you pointed out. I sell custom knives to pay my bills and you sell factory knives to pay yours. So of course we have a difference of opinion. Each have their merits.

In the Army I learned the hard way, that you buy the best equipment you can afford. The equipment the Army issued me was provided by the lowest bidder. Most of it is crap. I personally bought most of the equiment I used.

The question has always been: "is it the price or is it the cost".

Price is a one time fee. While the cost is something you may pay for years for a substandard product.

As you know, it can always be made cheaper. This why you and so many other factories use workers outside the US. If you had to pay US workers to make the knife, you couldnt compete favorably.

Does this effect the Cost? Yes. Quality? I dont know?

This would have to be answered by those who use these knives.

Personally, I think that all the collaborations will, in the long run, help custom knife sales. As customers will become interested in checking out custom knives earlier than they were 5 years ago.

I know for my business the average age of my customers drops every year.

I hear several times a week. "I used to buy factory knives, but now Im looking to own the original instead of the copy". Or words to that effect.

David, the majority of the knives you and the factories sell go directly to distributors and wholesalers.

Where as the knives I sell go directly to the customer. This allows me to favorably impact directly on both the customer and the maker.

As you know I design more knives every year than most factories do. I have 23 different designs being made exclusively for me this year. I can do this as I get a marketing directors fantasy...direct input from every customer who buys a knife from me.

David, you and I are both in enviable positions. We both do something we love for a profession.

That is probably the most important factor as why we sell and promote the knives that we do.

All those who sell knives, both compete and help each other at the same time.




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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
To Les:

I do appreciate your comments in this last post. Your original post mentioned that collaborations are bad for makers in the long run and that you would not carry knives or designs from makers that collaborate. These comments indicate that collaborations are bad for makers and the custom market in general which was the main source of my disagreement.

In your last post I now get the feeling you agree collaborations are good for makers and the custom knife market.

The increased marketing done by production companies offers much greater recognition for makers and creates awareness to a whole new audience that knows little or nothing about custom knives. The end result is people get curious and attend their first custom knife show to meet these makers in person and to find out what custom knives are all about. Bringing new customers into a market is key to the growth and future success of that market.


I truly believe custom-factory collaborations are the best thing that has happened to the knife industry in general. Everyone benefits including makers, custom knife dealers, production companies and knife consumers.

As far as comparing mine and your businesses there is very little difference other than OEC has a larger distribution network. If a knife design does not sell for you or a maker then you don't keep buying more or making more. If you do this is a bad business decision. Also in comparison a production company needs to invest a minimum of $30,000-60,000 up front in R&D, tooling, and marketing to introduce one new model. This why production companies need to be very selective about what new products they introduce. The reason you are able to introduce 23 new designs this year is because other than time at the drawing board, your tooling investment for a new design is $0. You draw it, discuss the design with a maker and then he makes it.

As far as working direct with the customer, it is essential for me to interact as much as possible with the end user so that we can continue to improve our products and to develop new products people are interested in. This why I am on this forum and attend the Blade Show and several other consumer shows each year. If a consumer calls or e-mails me I am always free to talk with them. Dealers and distributors are knife consumers as well and we get valuable input from these customers as well. If you send a knife back to Outdoor Edge to sharpen it or for warranty reasons, I'm the one who sharpens, repairs or replaces it.

Although we sell a good number of knives each year I will never forget where I started and for this reason OEC will always maintain a small company approach with customer service at the top of the list.

------------------
Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.

David Bloch,
President

Visit our new web site at http://www.outdooredge.com



[This message has been edited by David Bloch (edited 16 August 1999).]
 
I agree with Jim March...

Bigger is Badder. Cold Steel's Vaquero Grande, Rekat's Sifu are just the start.

I can see lots more Big Folder on the horizon.
Kinda like Hot Rods... First you had the GTO - and then all heck broke lose... I would LOVE to see a Spyderco Monster Folder. Big thumb hole and all!

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I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!


 
I have a link on my link page....the only one like it.....to steve johnsons page... when i was learning how to make knives glenn hornby took me over to a beer truck drivers house who collected nothing but steves knives...then....and now.....i could find no flaw anywhere on any knife he had....it set the stage....people like him (and yes there are quite a few others) hold the flag for custom made knives....he does not make tactical folders (a few fighters yes...with ivory and big horn and such)....he has been doing this for over 20 years....like someone said above.....take a look at the knife... some just awe you....there are a few makers out there that i am drawn to just by their designs...living in the middle of the pacific i have never seen one in the flesh.. but i know they are nice because the guy is very concerned about his product....the market is self adjusting....except in a few small cases....the money goes where the craftmanship is....

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
To Les Robertson, David Bloch,Tom Mayo & others, thank you so much for time & place in this interaction,I saviour the information over load with relish, thank you W
 
I feel priveleged that this conversation between a major company head and a major handmade dealer was conducted in this format for all of us to read. Thank you.

-Drew

[This message has been edited by Corduroy (edited 14 August 1999).]
 
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