New York Shooting...Opinions?

[Bladite]

they werent unarmed or collateral.
nationwide the average for hits is around 17 percent.
tragedy? how so?

supposedly, a cop if MORE likely to be shot by his fellows than by a bad (or good guy)...

this report, like many, is a year or more old... funny how they don't seem to pop up immediately. "blue shield" blocks a lot of info. is the case even resolved at this point? gah.

about 9 months ago, in my area, a woman who was broken down on the side of the road, was hit by a SUV, the driver had been known for sure to have been coming from a pub after it closed. woman died. driver mildly hurt. clearly the driver's fault. PROBABLY dwi, however the driver was never tested. oh, the driver was a cop. he was vanished immediately from the scene. mmMMMmm. still unresolved, but he was never charged with anything.

there's a video i saw recently, of an older shooting. a very mouth black? kid, yellow at the cops about his baby, faking having a gun, there was no gun, clearly. they sent a police dog at him, and a moment later, opened fire. 90+ shots. they hit their OWN dog. the dog was airlifted out. the man was left to die (you could still see him moaning and moving). justifiable? not really. probably they all got raises.

in boston area, the police are under standing orders to NOT ever shoot at another car again. seems the last few times, they shot and killed innocents. they also have a history of bad actions: shooting a woman on a pole with a rubber bullet - entered her brain - if the bullet hadn't actually killed her, the fall didn't help. several years ago, cops kicked in the door of a *priest*, he never moved, they beat him up, to a pulp, and he died of a heart attack. his wife came home, and they threatened her too. bad warrant, wrong address, wrong perp - they were looking for a gang of drug users. oops. a bit north, also several years ago, they kicked in the door of a man added to a laundry list of "perps to check" in a complex. the CHIEF of police fire a shot from cold-cock on entry. the male resident was asleep, in bed, with his not sick kid sleeping next to him while his wife was tending the sick kid in the other room. when he sat up, he was shot, nearly point blank, in the chest multiple times, in front of his kid. he didn't die immediately, and when his wife tried to call 911, they ripped the phone out of the wall, put a gun to her head, and told her to shuttup or die - she settled for some millions - one of the few cases i've heard of where they did settle. the chief apparently was forced to leave town, paid severence quite nice, dumped his wife, and took the dog catcher lady he was cheating with and moved to FLA? where he shot someone else in a similar manner months later.

very tricky stuff. basically, if anyone kicks in your front door and starts shooting at you, for any reason, you are screwed. if they are home invaders, you either die, or you try to fight back. if they are cops, you are screwed royally times two; because now it's going to probably be illegal to defend your home, shoot at cops, etc; except in texas (no knocks warrants are legal, but not common, because defending your home at all costs for any reason is supposedly defendable?) huh.

''The eight men apparently split into two groups of four, with one group piling into a Nissan Altima driven by Mr. Bell, Commissioner Kelly said. As an undercover detective who had been following the group on foot approached the vehicle, Mr. Bell drove into him, striking his leg, before plowing into a minivan carrying two backup officers, the commissioner said.''

how about this spin? (my words) ''as the men drove off, the undercover detective stepped in front of a moving and accelerating vehicle without warning or proper id, and despite the driver swerving to avoid (remember, he might have been tipsy), the officer was hit, and now the driver also ran into the van which moved to block them. perceiving that they were being car jacked, they panicked, and attempted to drive off and panic accelerated, the van attemtped to block them again and was struck, at which point police began unloading bullets into the suspects car, pausing to reload, and continue firing.''

sounds more realistic. a lot of police reports (i've read hundreds), having phrased like "officer approached on foot and determing that that situation was untenable proceeded to place suspects under arrest, there was resistance, and in defense of life, they were shot 3 times" or something. at no point in this kind of report writing is any kind of fault implied in what the officer did. none.

now, don't get me wrong in the above. i know cops. one or two have been buddies. i go riding with them. they are cool fantastic people, and sharp as tacks, and i'd trust them with my life. however, that's a few individuals. groups have their own logic, and there's always a couple bad apples, some that could use more training (like ayoobs stress training - how about getting injected with adrenalin and being blinded with strobes while you shoot live ammo on an outdoor range outside? :>), and well, stuff happens. MOST of the time, good works are done, and nobody notices the good stuff. just the bad.

the paperwork justifying each of those shots must be appalling. 31 shots including reload in 20 seconds? DAMN, that's fast. that's 1+15+15. cops around here carry hydrashock manstoppers... center post hollow point things. nasty. some depts won't allow it officially, but they look the other way ;P

rant off!

bladite

 

[Abaniko]

Good post Bladite. The most recent reports seem to follow your scenario. Bell may have been reacting to an unidentified man with a gun stepping out in front of him. A tragedy for all concerned. Fodder for opportunists of all different stripes.
Moromotom:
Were there any weapons brandished by the men? Were there any weapons found on any of the men? In the van? Were there people other than those in the van hit by police gunfire?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

It is always a tragedy when people are shot.

i disagree, some people need to be shot. it is a tragedy only when someone is shot who didnt deserve to be shot, this would be collateral.

if someone broke into your home and was attempting to hurt or hurting your family, should they be shot? would it be justified? if so, it is no tragedy.

 

[Bladite]

if someone broke into your home and was attempting to hurt or hurting your family, should they be shot? would it be justified? if so, it is no tragedy.

there was a newsbite recently of a noisy neighbor that called the police because they thought someone was robbing/inside a neighboring house. the cops showed and were given a KEY that the neighbor had. as it turns out, the owner came home a day or so early, and went to bed. they heard someone come in and sneak up the stairs. the cop. he was shot once (gut shot?). oops.

they are apparently going to review all kinds of policy on that one. imho, the homeowner was 100% in the right. the cop was also doing his job, but he entered a locked home, with a key by proxy, and didn't announce himself. they should have called first. the owner is griefstricken over this. would they do it again? dunno. what will they do NEXT time? hesitate? mmm.

getting shot sucks. getting shot in your home sucks (esp if you are not wanted by the police/etc). getting shot while doing your job sucks. yah.

bladite

 

[MORIMOTOM]

bladite, first of all your post if difficult to follow, lots of spelling and grammar errors.
there is nothing wrong with discussing the mistakes that have been made. a couple cases you mention i am familiar with. the k9 incident in particular. how many arrests are made each year in the u.s., and by how many officers?
if you want to pick a couple incidents and make blanket accusations about the whole profession that is your choice.

i saw the raw footage of the k9 incident, there were things that could have been done better, as with any incident. there is no perfect application of force. we learn from what others do, and their 'mistakes' often shape policy and tactics. the woman who was killed by the less lethal round should never have been fired on, from what i have read and learned in classes, i am a less lethal instructor btw. the supervisor, who was not trained on the launcher, made the call to fire. this incident has shaped policy changes nation wide.

the dwi you mention, where do you get your info? court records? newpaper? if there was internal discipline it is not a matter of public record, the supreme court has upheld this. if the officer was arrested there is little chance you would ever know, media rarely follow up on these types of incidents. i cant even say this actually happened, only your word to go on at this point.

it seems to me your knowledge of police work comes largely from the media, and the couple of friends you have. i dont care what you think of my profession or my peers, but if you are going to post an opinion or list what you believe are facts, a little homework would be in order.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

there was a newsbite recently of a noisy neighbor that called the police because they thought someone was robbing/inside a neighboring house. the cops showed and were given a KEY that the neighbor had. as it turns out, the owner came home a day or so early, and went to bed. they heard someone come in and sneak up the stairs. the cop. he was shot once (gut shot?). oops.

they are apparently going to review all kinds of policy on that one. imho, the homeowner was 100% in the right. the cop was also doing his job, but he entered a locked home, with a key by proxy, and didn't announce himself. they should have called first. the owner is griefstricken over this. would they do it again? dunno. what will they do NEXT time? hesitate? mmm.

getting shot sucks. getting shot in your home sucks (esp if you are not wanted by the police/etc). getting shot while doing your job sucks. yah.

bladite

perhaps, and i can only interpret what you say. NO policy exists, at least in ca, that would require officers to announce their presence when making an entry to apprehend a felon. this does not apply to warrant service, but to a reported crime in progress.

why would i let the suspect know where i am? thats stupid. i am only putting myself in undue danger. the element of suprise is often the greatest tool we have. the use of light, darkness, shadows, quiet approach, etc. many times keep us alive.

i may have done things differently, but different departments teach different tactics.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

it may have been better to surround the home and call out the suspect, this would likely have ended in no one being injured. but the officer made the decision to enter, exigency existed based on the information at hand, and the information was from a reliable source.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

and your newbite still does not answer my question. put yourself in the position of victim and say honestly that anyone being shot is a tragedy.

 

[Abaniko]

Trust me, even when it is called for, even when it is deserved the most, the tragedy is that it had to come to that end. Respect violence and its result for what it is: tragic. Only as a last resort. Then commit yourself to doing your best.
I'll take a compassionate solution over a violent one every time. Doesn't mean I'll shrink from the latter when the situation calls for it, either.

 

[Bladite]

bladite, first of all your post if difficult to follow, lots of spelling and grammar errors.

i'm not an english major, i have semi-dyslexia, and my spelling checker thought most of the words were fine (yeah, i have one). so you get high speed free-flow and also 2am here. i'm tired. guilty! shoot me!

there is nothing wrong with discussing the mistakes that have been made. a couple cases you mention i am familiar with. the k9 incident in particular. how many arrests are made each year in the u.s., and by how many officers?
if you want to pick a couple incidents and make blanket accusations about the whole profession that is your choice.

well, actually, i think i was mostly careful about not making accusations. yes? if not, then i should be more careful. however, i'm relating incidents i know about, and how they were handled, which in my area, is often badly, hushed, and petered out to the point of nothing.

i saw the raw footage of the k9 incident, there were things that could have been done better, as with any incident. there is no perfect application of force. we learn from what others do, and their 'mistakes' often shape policy

indeed. i agree. however, did they have to apply force? there seems to be a point where they officers get ... and sorry for the word ... bored. they aren't willing to wait it out. what if they had merely swapped shifts, and pinned that guy there for a day? he'd be begging for water, and food, and they could've cuffed him. instead, it seems to me, they forced the issue early. hard to say. can't say really. the facts are not available. can't second guess those there.

and tactics. the woman who was killed by the less lethal round should never have been fired on, from what i have read and learned in classes, i am a less lethal instructor btw. the supervisor, who was not trained on the launcher, made the call to fire. this incident has shaped policy changes nation wide.

it's shame someone had to die to make it clear that less lethal (and i'm pleased you used that phrase instead of something more safe sounding). it SEEMS obvious from the arm chair lay person that if you aren't proficient in a weapon, maybe you shouldn't be shooting it at people? maybe that's me.

there's another incident recently where a guy in a tree was shot to death, because the officer didn't know his taser from his sidearm. oops. i have read some criticisms of that. do you read tactical knives? interesting article about not having your backup knife near your gun on the chance someone takes your gun from you, you can't also draw the knife - they listed something like 6% of officers are shot by their own gun. eek. good article i thought.

the dwi you mention, where do you get your info? court records? newpaper?

newspaper, and the victim is a friend of friend locally. small world.

http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2006/11/18/news/news01.txt
http://www.myfoxboston.com/myfox/pa...n=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.2.1
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/08/14/off_duty_officer_at_wheel_in_crash/

there's more, you can google with names provided, or maybe even look it up and get the official pov? would be interesting. i don't understand how someone can "lose control" with no other known factors, not be tested for dwi (hey, it's MA, who knows), and kill someone and not even be charged, not even a teeny bit? maybe it happens everyday. i dunno. i provide it as a data point.

if there was internal discipline it is not a matter of public record, the supreme court has upheld this. if the officer was arrested there is little chance you would ever know, media rarely follow up on these types of incidents. i cant even say this actually happened, only your word to go on at this point.

in boston anyway, if the officer was arrested, they'd have a witch hunt (salem joke). oh yah. it would make national news, as any such thing would. the media is crazy for stuff like that.

as for my word, you have multiple references now. there you go.

it seems to me your knowledge of police work comes largely from the media, and the couple of friends you have. i dont care what you think of my profession or my peers, but if you are going to post an opinion or list what you believe are facts, a little homework would be in order.

my homework is mostly in order. if you would like to grade it, and show me the error of my ways, i'd appreciate it. otherwise, i have to pretty much continue in that vein. i've talked shopped with local officers, to the point of pitching specific scenarios, and getting real answers. one of my friends is a motorcycle nut. he has been hassled by his own people, when they didn't know it was HIM on a bike, only because he was "a biker in a scary helmet". in one particular case, he almost got a ticket until his supervisor showed up to tell the other guy off - a case of "i hate anyone on a bike, and i don't care who they are, they're going down". sorry, if a cop friend relates this, it's pretty strong stuff. i know their bona fides and history, good people they are.

also, if the cases are sealed, shielded, and not encouraged knowledge, really, how are good citizens supposed to know except for obvious media bias?

bladite

 

[Bladite]

perhaps, and i can only interpret what you say. NO policy exists, at least in ca, that would require officers to announce their presence when making an entry to apprehend a felon. this does not apply to warrant service, but to a reported crime in progress.

why would i let the suspect know where i am? thats stupid. i am only putting myself in undue danger. the element of suprise is often the greatest tool we have. the use of light, darkness, shadows, quiet approach, etc. many times keep us alive.

i may have done things differently, but different departments teach different tactics.

to be sure. there is probably not much policy to announce anywhere. sure, it's silly in many cases... however. in this one, it's kinda ... non typical... there were no signs of obvious break in from what i read - the officer checked. you get a report from a neighbor... single source of "something"... reliable? that's a hard call - what's the basis? to be clear, i'm not baiting, i want to know. single source, no sign of break in or other... it's ... just one point.

so, the officer used a provided key to enter a locked private residence. no warrant. no particular clue there WAS something up but one worried report (no felon seen by officer, just a report).

i have extreme sympathy for the job here. me? you couldn't pay me to enter a locked home at night. noooOOooo. around here, everyone is likely to be armed, almost expected. what would you do? me? call for help.

it sucks. the officer was shot. however, not fatally, and is apparently recovered as much as such a thing can be. the home owner is terribly traumatized. i can't imagine.

worse? what if the home owner were shot instead? gah. terrible too.

now, on that case, what i DON'T know, i'm assuming the home ownere was never charged. the police dept swore to review its policy on this one, a lot.

bladite

 

[MORIMOTOM]

dont mean to point fingers, but i can get a little passionate.

the k9 incident: wait it out? maybe, change shifts, not likely for a variety of reasons. officers changing postions have to be briefed on the incident, and there is often too much happening to do that reasonably. this situation was dynamic, and at least one of the deputies believed the man was raising his gun. point a gun at a cop and get fired on, that simple. no time to decide if he might shoot, or if he is just readjusting his grip, whatever. if you wait, you die. i have to go in to every tense situation with the mentality that i will win whatever fight comes my way, not just survive.
the handler released the dog just as deputies determined the man was a deadly threat to them. dogs are viewed as expendable, agree or disagree, deputies are not.

officers/deputies, me included, dont often share the real experiences we face because people not on the job can never really understand. understand what its like to be a target the minute you leave the station. understand always having to be ready to fight with a suspect. or what its like to go in to a building with a barricaded armed suspect, not knowing where he is or if he wants to shoot it out, or what crime he committed just prior.

heres a few brief stories of people who imo deserve to be shot:
lapd officer rapatti was shot and paralyzed from the waist down by a robbery suspect. after the radio call went out, she and her partner locate a man matching the description, who turns out to be the suspect. he had just robbed a local restaurant within minutes of the officers arrival. as they make contact, the suspect opens fire, hitting rapatti in the torso. her partner shoots and kills the suspect. he was a parolee.

a california highway patrolman is shot in the head and killed by a 16 year old wannabe gangster as the officer exits whittier court. the boy said he wanted to impress some gangsters and decided to shoot the first cop he saw. he was tried as an adult.

la county sheriff deputy david march is shot and killed while conducting a traffic stop. the suspect escapes and flees to mexico, where he remains to this day. mexico will not extradite criminals who face the death penalty. i was at his funeral.

two hollenbeck area lapd officers are shot multiple times by ak-47 wielding gangsters while conducting a traffic stop. officers return fire wounding one of the occupants of the vehicle. the shooter is still outstanding.

i was shot at while checking a silent alarm activation at a local school. the shots, i believe, were a diversion because the school was being burglarized at the time. i didnt return fire because i could not identify where the shots were coming from. no arrest was made. the burglars and the shooter escaped.

the mistakes are magnified, sometimes rightly so, in police work, but nearly always prematurely. but the good is always forgotten or ignored. and what is most often ignored or glanced over is the day to day stress and uncertainty inherent in what we do.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

to be sure. there is probably not much policy to announce anywhere. sure, it's silly in many cases... however. in this one, it's kinda ... non typical... there were no signs of obvious break in from what i read - the officer checked. you get a report from a neighbor... single source of "something"... reliable? that's a hard call - what's the basis? to be clear, i'm not baiting, i want to know. single source, no sign of break in or other... it's ... just one point.

so, the officer used a provided key to enter a locked private residence. no warrant. no particular clue there WAS something up but one worried report (no felon seen by officer, just a report).

i have extreme sympathy for the job here. me? you couldn't pay me to enter a locked home at night. noooOOooo. around here, everyone is likely to be armed, almost expected. what would you do? me? call for help.

it sucks. the officer was shot. however, not fatally, and is apparently recovered as much as such a thing can be. the home owner is terribly traumatized. i can't imagine.

worse? what if the home owner were shot instead? gah. terrible too.

now, on that case, what i DON'T know, i'm assuming the home ownere was never charged. the police dept swore to review its policy on this one, a lot.

bladite

reliable because source is someone who is clearly close with his neighbor, he has a key. just because there is no sign of forced entry does not mean that a burglary is not being committed. the caller believed his neighbors were out of town and had a key, therefore permission to enter the house.

warrants do not apply here. warrants are for legal entry into a suspects residence/business with the intent of taking the occupant into custody and collection of evidence. exigency and the belief a crime was being committed are probably cause to investigate and enter the residence.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

another quick point. bullets dont work. its not like the movies when a 9mm round knocks a suspect 5 feet backward. a suspect coming forward will continue coming forward even after being shot, often multiple times. and he will still be able to function, ie fire, stab, bite, whatever, until his brain function ceases. this can last for seconds or minutes, depending on shot placement and various factors including narcotics influence.

 

[Bladite]

dont mean to point fingers, but i can get a little passionate.

hey, no problem! i understand better than most i'll bet. that's why i TRY to write without taking sides, though i will admit i have bias. i'm all for justice. i hate to see wrongs not go right/etc. still, tragedy happens. the gods weep.

the k9 incident: wait it out? maybe, change shifts, not likely for a variety of reasons. officers changing postions have to be briefed on the incident, and there is often too much happening to do that reasonably. this situation was

yah, that was just a thought. based on the video, at least, it didn't last THAT long. not those classic wait outs like in movies, but an hour? i don't know.

dynamic, and at least one of the deputies believed the man was raising his gun. point a gun at a cop and get fired on, that simple. no time to decide if he might shoot, or if he is just readjusting his grip, whatever. if you wait, you die. i have to go in to every tense situation with the mentality that i will win whatever fight comes my way, not just survive.

and in that i agree absolutely. the guy was a screwup. you do not point or pretend to point anything at a crowd of people with guns, especially police. he should have announced he was giving up, very slowly got on the ground, and hold his breath. i won't say he deserved to die but he was completely stupid and arrogant about the reality he was in.

the handler released the dog just as deputies determined the man was a deadly threat to them. dogs are viewed as expendable, agree or disagree, deputies are not.

well, once the dog was out, things were forced, and he "flinched" and well, he was shot. he should've given up before that. i do feel that they should've probably airlifted him as well as the dog ;P but well.

and yes, human concerns outweigh animals. unless your nepalese elephants (see the news bite; weird). police don't use attack elephants

officers/deputies, me included, dont often share the real experiences we face because people not on the job can never really understand. understand what its like to be a target the minute you leave the station. understand always having to be ready to fight with a suspect. or what its like to go in to a building with a barricaded armed suspect, not knowing where he is or if he wants to shoot it out, or what crime he committed just prior.

sure. i know. it's a different world. in a similar way, i cannot grasp what goes through the "supposed" average woman's mind everyday. i'm a privileged white male, i'm suppsoed to afraid of nothing and not notice danger. honestly? i know when i'm in the shit. there are places i dare not tread, or drive (boston? gah!)...

i have had, on two occasions, a gun pointed at me by an officer, in both cases, i was the wrong guy they were looking for. they apologized profusely, and i understood completely. still, it was horrible. scared the piss out of me. so yes, i can understand, if only a little, what it might be like to be wearing a target of sorts everyday.

heres a few brief stories of people imo deserve to be shot:
lapd officer rapatti was shot and paralyzed from the waist down by a robbery suspect. after the radio call went out, she and her partner locate a man matching the description, who turns out to be the suspect. he had just robbed a local restaurant within minutes of the officers arrival. as they make contact, the suspect opens fire, hitting rapatti in the torso. her partner shoots and kills the suspect. he was a parolee.

a california highway patrolman is shot in the head and killed by a 16 year old wannabe gangster as the officer exits whittier court. the boy said he wanted to impress some gangsters and decided to shoot the first cop he saw. he was tried as an adult.

la county sheriff deputy david march is shot and killed while conducting a traffic stop. the suspect escapes and flees to mexico, where he remains to this day. mexico will not extradite criminals who face the death penalty. i was at his funeral.

two hollenbeck area lapd officers are shot multiple times by a ak-47 wielding gangsters while conducting a traffic stop. officers return fire wounding one of the occupants of the vehicle. the shooter is still outstanding.

i was shot at while checking a silent alarm activation at a local school. the shots, i believe, were a diversion because the school was being burglarized at the time. i didnt return fire because i could not identify where the shots were coming from. no arrest was made. the burglars and the shooter escaped.

gah. all of those are terrible. people as a rule, well are good. some suck. again, i won't go so far as to say they SHOULD be shot, but certainly, they are way stupid and are begging for it. prisons/paroles: another rant. some people should not be let out, not every. nor should they have cable tv, or free elective surgery. anyway.

the mistakes are magnified, sometimes rightly so, in police work, but nearly always prematurely. but the good is always forgotten or ignored. and what is most often ignored or glanced over is the day to day stress and uncertainty inherent in what we do.

yah, as i said earlier, the good is often overlooked, trod upon, and ignored. you will never hear about the officer that went out of his way to rescue a kitten. or bring a child home that was lost. or stand in the soaking rain for 6 hours to patrol a parade for soldiers home from war.

oh, and regarding your signature? what's it like to be shorn? i hear it's refreshing *grin*

and nice to meet you

bladite

 

[MORIMOTOM]

about the avatar, i like finding odd pictures and putting them here. seems to generate a lot of fun conversation. just wait until i bring back the beast!!!!!

aww what the heck,, here you go!

 

[Nasty]

For *that* alone, I almost locked the thread...


Passion is okay...but please remember that not all Cantinistas are native English (or American/Canadian) speakers.

As for the subject...life ain't fair.

 

[Fiddleback]

Is that Michael Jackson?

 

[kronckew]

no, michaelj has a more deformed nose and phonier teeth. besides which, he's a lot lighter now. (by about 500 million).

 

[Fiddleback]

Well they had to have the same surgeon then. Maybe this guy was the practice case.