newbie intro and article request

A

Alan Peatfield

Joined
Feb 4, 2000
Messages
15
Hi all,

I am new to this forum, though I have been lurking for a bit, and I have already ordered my first HI Khukuri from Uncle Bill just before he left for Nepal.

I'm an archaeologist (Bronze Age Greeks) and hobby martial artist (Tai Chi and Ba Gua). Recently I've been researching the useage of ancient swords, and by a circuitous route became interested in incurving blades like the ancient Greek kopis and more recent yataghan. Obviously this brought me here, and I've found much of the discussion useful.

I've known about khukuris most of my life, though I have never really addressed them in depth till now. My father served in the 14th Indian Army in Burma in WW2. He kept his service khukuri after the war, and it lived in his car for years. On his desk he has always kept a large khukuri. I guess it is an Indian tourist model, but it must be 35-40 years old by now.

I look forward to learning more from you guys in the future. In the meantime I have a request. Inside Kungfu magazine is impossible to get in Ireland, where I live, so if any of you have a copy of the khukri article in the March issue, mentioned by Uncle Bill, would you please send me a photocopy?

Many thanks. Address below.

Alan Peatfield

c/o Dept. of Classics,
University College Dublin,
Belfield, Dublin 4.
IRELAND.
 
Welcome to Bedlam, Alan. Glad to have you posting. I've been trying to get ahold of a copy of "Inside Kung Fu" myself. There are some really nice people out there who I'm sure have both scanners and a copy of the issue with the article we're going nuts to get.

(Alan has included his email in his profile, guys. Please help him, and if you scan me copies I'll say some really nice things about you til my memory goes!)

By the way, I've heard of a predecessor to the Greek Kopis from the Egyptians, refered to as a Kopesh. Do you know ( rumors and comments off the top of your head are fine as long as you let us know that's what they are ) anything about that?

And welcome again. It's wonderful and scary at the same time to know how many serious students of the curved knife there are out there reading this forum.

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Himalayan Imports Website

Himalayan Imports Khukuri FAQ
 
Dear Dr. Peatfield: Welcome aboard. It is nice to have an archaeologist, with the right historical era especially, with us. Perhaps you can shed some light on this: Is there any hard evidence to support the notion that khukuris came into the north-Indian subcontinent via Alexander the Great (from kopis)? There seems to be an assumption this is so, because they look alike. But sometimes cultures can develop tools in parallel, without direct contact.

G. Bass
 
Dr. Peatfield, welcome to you.

Your archeologic viewpoint will be very much welcome on this forum and hope you enjoy the great ambience of what is sometimes known as Uncle Bill's Wild Mutant Khukuriholic Cantina.

May you learn from us as much as we forumites learn from you.

Harry

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Ayo Ghorapani!
 
:
Welcome aboard Alan!!
Glad you decided to join Uncle Bill's Cantina.
smile.gif

We are a bunch of varied characters with multiple interests and we all share the uncurable HIKV as you probably already know.
smile.gif

It's gonna be nice to have somone who can shed some more light on the origins and wherefores of our beloved khukuri's. I can't even begin to imagine any large sized khukuri like knife made from bronze!!

If you don't mind me asking a couple of questions?
smile.gif

What was the mix of copper and tin to make weapons with during that era? ( I am familiar with the 9:1 ratio that seemed to be commonly used by several other cultures.)
Were the bronze age weapons more heavily made or were there some of the thinner sleek stiletto types made from bronze as well?

Rusty:
I have one of the objects of your desire. I need to mail out some other things this week if possible. ( Gettin off my lazy arse and gittin it done.) I am wondering if the package I would really like to send you wouldn't fare better with a motor freight service. I guess I will have to lighten the load and send it USPS, or perhaps in two boxes.

Anyone know of any size and weight limits that USPS may have?




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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

"Know your own bone, gnaw at it, bury it, unearth it again."

'Thoreau'

Khukuri FAQ
 
Welcome Dr. This little pit stop on the information superhighway is where the kukhri addict can hang his/her hat(and knives and guns and anything else...) and just shoot the bull. If you go through some of the old posts you can find out a lot about the people here. In particular our spiritual leader and the local source of our obssesion Uncle Bill. Welcome again, and don't forget to have a good time.

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"Clear a path for the Kukhri or it will clear one for itself"
 
You have email Yvsa.

If it is Dr. Peatfield, I wasn't sure so I didn't include the title of Dr. in front of your name. But they are right, there is definitely a Star Wars Cantina ambiance to this forum.

As Uncle Bill puts it, "... what does all this have to do with khukuris? Everything."

I'm learning so much about asian culture around the edges of the focus on the khukuri that I'm learning how little I know of western civilization and culture.

Got more to post in a few minutes.


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Himalayan Imports Website

Himalayan Imports Khukuri FAQ
 
There's a very well-preserved bronze machaera from about 500-450BC in the British Museum; I sent a picture of it to Bill when I first approached him about having a machaera made for me by HI.

It looks like a long-nosed sirupati to me... Interestingly, although it has no cho, it has got a sword of Shiva, almost identical to those on many HI khuks, except that it extends 3/4 of the length of the blade.

 
:
Tom is there anything else that you can remember from the Bronze Machaera in the museum? Like thickness, weight, length, thickness, width of blade? The condition of it and the handle material, if any, would be interestng also.
I have a great facination for those old weapons no matter where they are from or size or materials, however the bronze and copper do have an edge on steel.

Many years ago I saw an old copper Beavertail Dagger in a museum in Montana. It had what appeared to be a dark hardwood handle that was mounted with rawhide. I have heard stories about the native copper found sometimes in quite large nuggets that were moe in the form af sheet copper. The interesting part of the stories to me was the part where the copper was unusually hard. It may have been due to cold working the copper, but this knife was pretty old and had a very nice smooth finish although the blade was very dark like copper gets when not protected. It didn't have the appearance of ever having any verdigris on the blade or handle.


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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

"Know your own bone, gnaw at it, bury it, unearth it again."

'Thoreau'

Khukuri FAQ
 
Tom, you are the cause of the following information. When I was at the library Monday, looking for your books, I noticed a magazine on the shelves I'd never heard of before. It was called "Civilization".

I was short on time, but saw it had an entire section of articles on what they called the
"Buddha Boom", in pages 57-71 of the December '99 / January '00, culminating in a short interview with HHDL so I photocopied it. I'm about half thru the articles and have noted several "AHA" moments, so at a guess it is probably significantly better researched and written than run-of-the-mill Reader's Digest pablum. If the Hawthorne, Nevada library has a copy, about anywhere in the English speaking countries might have it available.

Anyway, back to playing with sharp objects.

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Himalayan Imports Website

Himalayan Imports Khukuri FAQ
 
Alan, nice to have you aboard. I read the art. in the Inside Kung-fu and it was quite interesting but it did not mention khukris at all but was about a form of empty hand defence of Bando called the cobra style. It is amied at nerve centers.Still good reading though I wish it had talked about khukuris also.
 
HOLD ON ONE MINUTE HERE!

With all this welcoming, is anybody going to send him the article he asked for? I'd like a copy of it too, if you're going to send it to him.

OK, so someone responded while I was enduring the world wide wait for it to take my post. Thanks.
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Himalayan Imports Website

Himalayan Imports Khukuri FAQ

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-08-2000).]
 
Rusty I second the motion... I would also like to see the article.

Vhd you are just the link master this month! right on

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"Clear a path for the Kukhri or it will clear one for itself"
 
Hi Alan,

nice to see one more "martial hobbyist" on here!
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wink.gif



Originally posted by Vampire Hunter D:
I always just assumed that it was some obscure Kung-Fu style.
Click to expand...

Hardly an obscure Chinese style (one of the 3 well-known neijia/internal styles) - however, it has quite some reputation for employing weird blades...
cool.gif


Best wishes,
kai "out of lurk mode, too... ;o)"
 
Originally posted by Fishbate:
Is there any hard evidence to support the notion that khukuris came into the north-Indian subcontinent via Alexander the Great (from kopis)? There seems to be an assumption this is so, because they look alike. But sometimes cultures can develop tools in parallel, without direct contact.
Click to expand...

Sure they can. However, many people tend to underestimate the amount of trade which has been going on for thousands of years throughout most of Eurasia (BCE). Needless to say that trade usually predates (often by a long time) more imperialistic encounters (like Alexander's conquest). Thus, I'm generally not too enthusiastic about relating singular historical events with the (first) transfer of human skill and knowledge...

BTW, since I finally made it out of lurk mode: I'm myself interested in the history of khukuri-like blades and related MA practise in diverse cultures. I'd be especially interested in any insights regarding the introduction of the "khukuri design" into the Southeast Asian archipelago (and its utilization
wink.gif
).

Best wishes,
kai "dispersal or vicariance?
biggrin.gif
"
-------------------------- The Vo Pages ---------------------------
Resources for Vietnamese Martial Arts: http://www.madb.de/vo/

[This message has been edited by Kai Witte (edited 02-09-2000).]
 
Hi guys,

Thanks for the welcome. The friendliness was certainly one of the things that enticed me online.

Here are some responses:

Anybody interested in the Ba Gua martial art I do can check out:
www.baguaireland.com

The site is still under construction, but I add to it when I can.

The Egptian kopesh looks something like a sickle with a long handle. Historians usually suggest that it was used to hook around an opponent's shield. I guess too that it would also have been useful against chariot horses in a melee and would hook around thrusting spears and slide up to make a hand cut quite effectively.
In trying to understand ancient weapons my guiding principle is that form defines function; so the only way to work out how a weapon was used is to get hold of one, swing it around and see what the possibilities are. As yet I haven't held a kopesh. And I do have to say that museum curators get a little nervous when you swing their weapons around and even more so when you ask to cut something with them!

As to the relationship to the kopis to the khukuri - I think it is a plausible idea, though I have seen no direct evidence for a link, and the khukuri could have developed independently. Even so I have some ideas about how to go about looking for evidence for a link, but it would involve access the antiquities of countries along the Silk Road, like Afghanistan, which is just a little problemtic at the mement.

Copper to tin ratio for bronze - I don't have exact figures to hand, but 9:1 is about right. Students are always surprised about just how little tin is involved.

Bronze Age swords - they are rarely heavy and thick. Through most of the the Bronze Age blades were relatively flat and thin, and were strengthened wih midrib. Edges were easily chipped. It wasn't until the end of the Bronze Age that they got the idea of a flattened oval or diamond shaped cross-section. This made for heavier weapons, so they shortened them and developed the leaf-shaped blade.

The British Museum machaera - I know the Keeper of Greek and Roman Antiquities reasonably well, so I'll ask him if I can go and play with their weapons. And get details on weight, thickness, balance etc. But I won't have the time to do that before June. Remind me somebody.

A contribution to the thread on English knife laws - the last I heard the written law allowed for folders with three-inch blades. But a recent judge's ruling deemed that lockback folders were not legal folders for the purposes of the law. This makes the situation very confused, becuase some police forces will go by the law only, while others will accept the ruling.
BTW - in Ireland ALL knives carried on the person are illegal, but the police exercise a lot of discretion. I.e. a three-inch folder carried by a 44 year old university lecturer will not receive the same attention than the same knife would get carried by a crop-haired 20 year old, with rings through his ears and nose.

all the best,

Alan
 
Originally posted by Alan Peatfield:
The British Museum machaera - I know the Keeper of Greek and Roman Antiquities reasonably well, so I'll ask him if I can go and play with their weapons. And get details on weight, thickness, balance etc. But I won't have the time to do that before June.
Click to expand...

Hi Alan,

Great oppotunity!
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BTW, aren't researchers sometimes making functional replicas which should be better for "playing around" with?
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I've been in contact with some "stone age folks" who were quite a bit into serious (functional) experiments - and actually great craftsman...

Remind me somebody.
Click to expand...

That's what BTTT is for, isn't it?
wink.gif


Best wishes,
kai
 
Alan -

Can you shed some light on where the machaera came from, and how far back it goes? Snodgrass ( revised Johns Hopkins edn, 1999, p.97) seems to place it somewhere in the late 6th/early 5th centuries, and says 'There are earlier precedents for this shape in Greece, among both weapons and cleavers or other domestic instruments; but the sudden onset of the new sword in Greek battle-scenes of the latest 6th and 5th centuries suggests either a marked advance in design or a borrowing from abroad.'

He doesn't cite refs to any of the 'earlier precedents' and I can't remember having seen any; nor can I recall offhand seeing any earlier foreign weapons resembling this design.

As I see it, the machaera is basically a leaf-blade sword, bent sideways and with the back reinforced and blunt; a logical development from an existing design. However, I can't see any change in patterns of hoplite warfare at the end of the 6th/start of the 5th that would call for the development of a new style of sword with so much more emphasis on the cut. Though the machaera could be seen as an improved cutter designed to counter the panoply, I don't see any evidence of changed tactics to accomodate it; nor would there be much scope for using the machaera in the hoplite 'rugby scrum' engagement (except, of course, in following up the enemy when he runs away, which as I understand it was the point in a hoplite battle when most casualties happened)

As for the Alexander connection; if the machaera shape arrived in India before Alexander got there, wouldn't it be reasonab;e to expect it to have influenced other regions en route? Are there any khuk-shaped weapons shown in Persian or Scythian art during the relevant period, or any finds of khuk-shaped blades?

Given the impact Alexander made in India (the Sikander legends &c) it's tempting to attribute the khukuri to the same period.

(Bill; if you're reading this - please ask the kamis if there are any Nepalese legends or old stories about Sikander, Segunder or Iskander... If they reply, 'Sikander? Sure, we know about him, he invented the khukuri', I think we might be getting somewhere...)
 
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