Newbie questions for LA, CA carry

G

georgets

Joined
Jan 10, 2002
Messages
6
Hi all, I'm new to the board and would like to know what's legal to carry in Los Angeles. From what I understand so far from this board, 3" is the max blade length. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I would also like a list of recommended blades for carrying purposes. I know it depends on personal preference but I would like to hear what you pros recommend as quality blade. Thanks.
 
Welcome aboard!

The County and City statutes prohibit one from openly carrying a blade of 3 or more inches. So technically, 2.99 or under is legal.

There is a dispute over what is meant by "openly carrying". Most LEOs with whom I have spoken interpret it to mean that if you are in a public place with a knife (whether exposed on your belt or concealed in your pocket), the <3" rule applies. Many people disagree and interpret the statute to mean that if the knife is concealed it is not "openly" carried. Under that argument, there is no length limit for concealed folders. State law would probably preclude concealed carry of fixed blades, but that issue is also the subject of some disagreement.

There are exceptions in the LA City/County laws for legitimate recreational and vocational knife carry. If you were on a trail clearing project in the Santa Monica Mountains, you'd probably have a pretty good argument that your machete was legal. Likewise if you were working on a landscaping team.
 
OK there are 3 things you need to know for California.

1. Never carry any knives with blade longer then 2.5 inches "on the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, any private university, the University of California, the California State University, or the California Community Colleges". (That is according to section 626.10 of California penal code)

2. Never carry switchblade with the blade longer then 2.5 inches - switchblade (according to CA Penal code section 653k) is ANY folding knife "having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever". By the way if cops find knife that they consider a "Switchblade" in a passenger section of your car (like under the seat or a glove compartment) you can get a sentence.

3. Never carry anything that falls under "dagger" knife in California, now carefull - this is tricky. "Dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. So any fixblade you carry is a dagger. Even with 2 inches blade. Even iron rod or screwdriver can be considered a dagger if cops can prove you were going to use it for stabbing.

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Now here is what you CAN carry. You can carry a fix blade knife openly if you have a valid reason to carry it - like you are fishing or hunting. Of course if you carry 10 inches bowie on your belt in the public place you will find difficult to explain the need to carry it to the peace officer... And you get basted for carrying a dagger.

You can carry any folding knive that is not a switchblade. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.

That is according to California penal code section 653k. So you can carry a folder with 10 inches blade as long as you can't use any part of the blade when the knife is closed (or it will be treated as dagger) AND you can not carry any folder in open position (or it will be treated as dagger).

Good luck.

By the way, the Spyderco are somewhat in the middle between gravity knife and legal folder in California, you gotta be carefull about them. Almost any spyderco can be open with a flip on a wrist, but they are designed to open with a thumb... You can argue, but you MIGHT get basted for having a switchblade... Just so you know.
 
Rival has been kind enough to present a good deal of information on general California knife law that I did not cover. However, it is important to remember that state law is not the final answer in the City/County of Los Angeles. You also have to look at the local laws. Depending upon the facts of your particular case and how the local laws are interpreted, something may be legal under state law but illegal under local law. If you obey the state law but violate the local law, you may still end up with legal problems.
 
I have to disagree with Rival on three points.

First the dirk and dagger law (P.C. 12020) only prohibits the concealed carry. It then goes to state that carry on the waist in plain view in a sheath is not concealed. Since there is no other statute dealing with dirks and daggers they are legal to carry openly.

Second, there is no mention in any of the statutes about the need to justify carry of fixed blade. If it is carried openly in a sheath it may be carried for any reason. Unless that is self defense. In that case it may be said that you are carrying a deadly weapon with the intent of using it as such.

Third, is a simple typo. He said never carry an auto with a blade of more than 2.5". That should be 2" as he stated when quoting the statute.

BTW. I hold P.O.S.T. for the State of CA, and was a Federal LEO for the DOD based out of Los Alamitos Army Air Station.

As stated earlier, state statutes may be pre-empted by local munis. Cities and Counties are allowed to make laws that are more restrictive than the states but may not pass laws that are more permissive than the states.

Rival, if you can quote me the exact PC to support your statements or even the exact case number (if case law) I would welcome the update.
 
Thank you all so much for the quick response and with such detail. I really appreciate that. I got a few more questions for you. So from what I understand, to be legal in CA I can carry a folder up to 3" in plain view(waist) or carry a auto up to 2" in plain view? Can you carry them concealed( in pocket)?? If Spyderco is questionable, then what would you recommend? What do you folks carry in CA?? Any make or model that you guys prefer?? Bunch of questions, Thanks in advance for your reply!
 
Lockback Spyderco knives have a detent, which should make them exempt from the switchblade definition.

All folders with a detent that look like folding knives are legal to carry concealed regardless of length, except on public school grounds and government properties such as courthouses.

It is legal to carry any fixed blade "openly" regardless of length as far as the state legal code goes. LA, Hollywood, and Davis have more restrictive knife laws. There may be other cities with their own knife codes, but those are the only three I know about. Others have done a good job of describing the LA law, as far as I know. So fixed blade carry over 3" is effectively illegal in LA since the city says you cannot carry a blade over 3" openly, and the state says you cannot carry anything fixed concealed.

A buddy of mine who is a deputy DA advised me not to carry any fixed blade, openly or not. I think it was excellent advice, but I continue to do so anyway. It is technically legal. The old street standards hold true pretty much. If you are an upstanding, clean-cut guy who stays out of trouble, you can get away with a lot. If you look BAD, you can get hassled even if you are technically legal.
 
Steve: Can you specify what the rules in Hollywood are?

Also, where exactly does the "LA" law apply? Only in the city of Los Angeles? Anywhere in Los Angeles County? In the city of LA and unincorporated regions of the county, but not in other cities?
 
Just to confirm with you guys then, since folder of any size can be carry concealed, does that mean we're not limited to blade length for folder? Since there are more options in 4" length I rather go with that then the 3" if that's legal. I just don't want to get caught carrying something that will get me in trouble. If that's true, then would a "Sifu" or Benchmade 710 be a good option??
 
The Sifu is my daily edc when not at work. At work, i carry the Carnivour. I'm looking at getting the new Axis Lock AFCK as well.

Hank:cool:
 
Has anyone been stop by cops carrying a 4" folder? Would they give you hell or get you in trouble?

BTW, what's LEO? Sorry, still learning here.....
 
Two points.
1. Hollywood is part of the City of Los Angeles.

2. First of all, I am not a lawyer. If you follow this advise YMMV. That said, IME, you can carry a 3+" folder in L.A. as long as you pass an attitude test with the LAPD officer and present a plausible reason for having it (work related is probably the best way to go).

I was pulled over on my motorcyle for speeding. The officer saw my my Vaquero Grande in its sheath in my front pocket. He asked to see it. Freaked a little when I pulled it out. Asked why I had it. I said I worked in a print shop and I used it at work. He handed it back to me. Thing is, I was very respectful and we conducted the entire thing in a very business like manner. YMMV!
 
Sorry, I don't know the LA and Davis municipal codes regarding knives in detail. All I know is that there is no length restriction on concealed folders in the state code. The Sifu is indeed a very good carry, as is my choice, the 710.
 
LA City and County laws are virtually identical on this topic. As a result, all the cities within LA County are covered by essentially the same law as the City of LA.

As noted above, a responsible person PROBABLY won't have a problem with a folder over 3". However, if you run into a LEO who is having a bad day (or one of the very few who are just plain mean), they could write you up. I haven't reviewed the exact language of the statute in a long time, so I'll try to do that again. To avoid most potential problems, it would be safest to stick with a folder under 3".

I haven't heard of Spydercos presenting any special problems, and I know a couple LEOs who carry them.
 
Like many people here, I often rotate a few (they get SOOOO jealous if they're never carried!). My favorite is a custom Ryan Model 7. However, it's about a 4.3" blade and therefore risky to carry in LA.

When I'm in an area where law enforcement supervision is more probable, I like the Spyderco Delica, the smaller CRKT Crawford/Kasper, the Benchmade Mini-Stryker, the smaller Timberline Kelly Worden Tactical, and the medium CS El Lobo/Voyager. Of course, there are plenty of others around 3" and a lot depends upon how they fit your hand. In such situations I generally go with modest to moderately priced factory knives because if I have a knife confiscated, I don't want it to be an expensive custom.

Some of the foregoing knives are listed by the factories at 3" blades, which is technically a hair over the LA limit. In the first place, I think it is unlikely that you would be prosecuted for a 3" blade when 2.99" would be OK. However, it could conceivably happen and the response at that point is to argue how the blade is measured. In the knife law forum someone cited a California case in which the Court of Appeal ruled that you measure the sharpened cutting edge, not including the unsharpened choil/ricasso area. Many of the manufacturers seem to measure the entire length of steel protruding from the handle. If the case cited in the knife law forum is still good law, the actual cutting edge of most such knives will come in just under 3" and comply with the LA law.

When I have a good vocational/recreational reason for carrying a knife over 3", I usually go with a large or extra large CS Voyager. As before, the rationale is that I won't cry over a loss as much as I would with the custom Ryan. There are, of course, a ton of other good (and many better) entries in the >3" class. I sometimes carry a large Kelly Worden, CRKT factory Ryan Model 7 or other large CRKT models, Benchmade AFCK, etc.

Read the discussions here for a few weeks, search the archives for threads on models that interest you, then handle them. I'm sure that you will come up with at least a couple suitable choices .
 
Neglected to answer two of your earlier questions. LEO=Law Enforcement Officer.

With regard to your question about being caught with a 3"+ folder, one of my martial arts friends was questioned and had a folder over 4". The LEOs asked him a couple questions, then handed it back to him (of course, he was recently honorably discharged from the Marine Corps, clean cut, and causing no trouble).

Another friend sold one of his acquaintances a cheap copy of a CS mini-pal one inch push knife. The acquaintance was on parole and hanging out in a known druggy area. Two LEOs searched him and found it (concealed). The first one returned it. The lead officer had a fit and arrested him. He pleaded nolo and was sentenced to 120 days. This is one argument for avoiding carry of concealed fixed blades, even if they are only one inch.
 
First of all I'd like to thank R.W.Clark in correcting my post. His corrections are very accurate and important.

Second of all, nobody mentioned the actual legal length of folder blade in LA... Of course I am talking about legal, non-switchblade folder.

I used to carry Delica here in LA, and it was inspected by LEOs on more then one occasion (they always noticed the shiny clip in my right pocket when they pull you over - go figure) - but they would always hand it back to me without any questions... I think the under 3" blade is too short to ask any questions.

Now, after I lost my pretty beat up Delica, my new EDC is on the way - the infamous SERE 2000 with it's 3.6" blade, offensive look, heavy weight, and (get ready) highly visible shiny pocket clip...

Now, can someone give me any info on whether that toy is legal to carry here in LA? The only info I picked up in this thread is that "fixed blade carry over 3" is effectively illegal in LA since the city says you cannot carry a blade over 3" openly, and the state says you cannot carry anything fixed concealed". That 3" limit does not apply to folders, does it?
 
they always noticed the shiny clip in my right pocket when they pull you over - go figure
Click to expand...

With the clip visible would this be considered concealed or open carry?
 
I'm going to look up the city and county laws and read them again. However, it is my understanding that LA does not allow any blades of 3 or more inches, folder or fixed, if they are openly carried (subject to the vocational/recreational exceptions described above). I have never heard any serious dispute about that.

Where the dispute seems to arise is over the question of whether you can carry a folder with a blade of 3 or more inches concealed in LA. Does the LA limit apply only to open/exposed carry or does it include concealed carry? LEOs usually take the position that the law applies to both, so they typically argue that you can never carry a folder of 3 or more inches either exposed or concealed.

Last time I reviewed the actual laws, I did not think that the LEOs were correct in their interpretation. Someone with more computer ability than I should post the language of the laws here so that people can form their own opinions. I'll get the article and section numbers from the LA Municipal Code and post them here so that someone with computer skills can put up the text.

The question of whether a folder clipped in a pocket /waistband is exposed or concealed is another issue. I remember reading something about the issue, but don't have the answer in front of me. Perhaps Mr. Clark or one of the other posters has a reference?
 
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