newbie steel question.

H

hannibal lecter spyderco

Joined
Mar 29, 2001
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1,236
hi

All I'm totally knew here and was hoping to start off with a simple knives, I've been reading up on all the steels etc.. for over a year now and i figured i get started with something simple.

Anyways, I was wondering if you kind folks could point me to a spot online that has good steel that has been tempered already. I like to start off with something that just requires me to shape the blade grind it. I'm taking baby steps before i jump into the forging and all that.

Appreciate your help to a newbie in advance
 
The problem with grinding to shape already heat treated and tempered steel is the very very very very real possibility of ruining the temper. The less your experience level the more likely you are to ruin the temper through overheating the blade during grinding. Add the complications of drilling any holes unless you have carbide bits and it's a lot of work. Folder makers often grind their blades after heat treat but they're dealing with minimal stock removal and usually a lot of experience.

There's no need to buy hardened/tempered steel before hand. Most of the knife material suppliers like Jantz and K&G offer heat treating services and so do some of the makers on the forum. If you're going to farm out the heat treat you'll need to get a "known" steel so they know how to handle the steel.

All that being said, if you go the simple steel route you can make a "one brick forge" or a "coffee can forge" (search for those terms and it'l show you how to make a simple, cheap and useful forge) that you can do your own heat treating at home with.
 
I think he means annealed. Tempering is done after the quench.As Will said, trying to shape a hardened blade is not the easy way to start.

If you are referring to steel that is annealed do it is soft, and then grinding/filing the blade, the suppliers all sell steel in this form. It is called CRA (cold rolled and annealed) or HRA (hot rolled and annealed). If you are forging, use either. If you are grinding you may prefer to get the steel as precision ground, which is annealed, and surface ground for looks and flatness. Whatever you choose (it really doesn't matter too much), the blade will need to be heat treater after you have it shaped and sanded smooth. Leave a little to take off in sanding after the HT (the edge should be about .040" before the HT, which is about as thick as a dime).

There are lots of heat treaters where you can send the blade to be hardened, or you might be able to hook up with a local smith and do it at his/her shop.

Stacy
 
A "prehardened steel" that makes an outstanding knife that isn't very prone to losing the temper during grinding is M2 HSS power hacksaw blades. Being a high speed steel, it is tempered over 1000F. As long as you're somewhat careful it will work fine.

It works well as a small precision cutter rather than a big bruiser. Typical hardness would be HRC 64-66.
 
first, read the stickies titled "newbies good info here" its not the normal stickie stuff, it really is good info, and will answer many questions about this stuff, then find someone to do your HT and get whichever steel they recommend

-Page
 
No I meant tempered not annealing, I was under the impression that tempering took place under extreme temperatures that its not likely to reach during grinding. Keep in mind that I'm a newbie, so I know just about enough to get myself into trouble. I read a book called tactical folder where the author grinded his folders after the fact so I figured this is the way to go. No need to figure out the proper temperature when to oil quench etc...


Ok, I suppose I will might end up getting one of you fine makers just to heat treat it for me. Now where do you gents get your steel from?
 
The trouble with working with hardend (tempered) steel is you really need some special tools. I also grind my bevels after hardening for my folders, but, i have cut the blank and done the profile while annealed (soft). Then I did the HT and then the bevels. I think the suggestion to send it out for HT is the best, what ever blade you make it will work well given a good HT,


There are a number of places to get steel, Admiralsteel.com is a good place to start and they have prices on their website.

The next question is how big and what steel. I suggest you start with 1/8 thick by 1 1/2 wide. this will give you a piece of steel to cut from. Paul Bos or texas knife maker suppy can do the heat treat. They only do air hardening (not 1080 or 1095).. So you can choose from the wide variety of stainless that they have. I would say keep it simple and get ATS 34 or 440c.
 
If you REALLY want to, the easiest way to use pre-hardened, pre-tempered steel is to use files as your barstock. BEWARE, the "steel snobs" may jump on me for recommending this, not because they're mean, but because they will rightfully say, "in the long run you're much better off starting with annealed barstock and having an experienced heat-treater take care of it for you." This is true. Not snobbery, simply a fact.

However, if you have no HT experience (like me!), you can do the following and it will get you a pretty good blade.

Take a GOOD QUALITY, AMERICAN MADE file... I've had good success with both Nicholson and Simmonds brands... they seem to be very consistent in the steel they use. Imported junk... who knows what's in there? Choose a file that's close to the finished size you need, no sense spending extra time at the grinder to remove a lot of (HARD) steel. These will be high-carbon steel, with potential to make very nice blades.

But they are way to hard to grind easily, and would be just too brittle for a using knife if you ground them out as-is.

Take off the handle if there is one, and throw it in your pre-heated kitchen oven at about 375 degrees, for at least an hour. This will bring the hardness down a bit, close to what a good knife should be. (remember, files are harder than knife blades so they can cut tough steel). Now the steel is softened just a bit, and if you ground part of it smooth before re-tempering, you will see it took on a nice bronze color.

At this point, the steel is machineable, but will be difficult. Remember, it's as hard or harder than a finished blade. Using a good belt-grinder will be an exercise in patience and restraint; using files and sandpaper will make you a candidate for sainthood.

Now start grinding your blade out of the re-tempered file. If you go too fast and the steel turns purple or blue, you've over-heated it and it will be too soft to hold an edge. Grind slowly and dip the blade in water OFTEN. Do not wear gloves while grinding; your fingertips will be your temp-gauge. When the steel gets to feeling warm in your hands, COOL IT in water. Dip often. Trust me, you will be really mad if you go too fast and ruin the temper...

This will take a long time (compared to annealed steel of the same type), even with a good belt-grinder, because the steel is already quite hard and you have to go slow to avoid messing it up. When you are done with the blade shape etc, sharpen it up and test the edge with a brass rod. If the edge won't flex, or chips out, re-temper again at a slightly higher setting, perhaps at 400. Keep in mind that your kitchen oven isn't designed for precision, so start at LOW temps and work your way up if you need to. If you start at too high a temp, you'll temper it too soft and have to start all over by annealing, re-hardening, and re-tempering again, which of course is what you wanted to avoid in the first place.

Now you have a nice blade with a decent HT and temper, you only have to attach a handle. Well, if you ground out a narrow-tang style, all you need to do is thread the end, put on a block of wood, epoxy it up and hold it all together with a tang nut. You could "spot-anneal" the tang for toughness with a torch if strength is a big concern (longer blades, mostly). If you want a full-tang style, you'll need to either spot-anneal the tang where you want to drill for pins/rivets, or invest in a solid carbide bit to drill through the hardened steel. Neither of which is all that much fun, actually... it's kind of a jerry-rigged way to make a knife. But it can and does work, lots of us have made knives this way.

Want to work with air-hardening tool steels or stainless? Don't even mess with pre-hardened steel, it will drive you batty.

If you want to make one or two knives for yourself, this can be a cost-effective way to go, although the $ you save will quickly be eaten up by the time you spend grinding. If you want to make a handful or more of knives, please follow the advice of the others here and start with annealed bar-stock of your choosing.

(signed) Proud owner of several "old-file" knives and currently using only known, factory-fresh annealed tool steel, JT
 
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If you draw file hardened steel, you'll go through good files very quickly. The only way to work it is with a decent belt grinder.

All of my air hardened knives are ground after heat treat, but heat treated after profiling.
 
First, because I know it bugs some people, tempering is the process of taking some of the hardness out of heat treated steel by heating it. If you grind hardened steel too hot it will temper it even more, possibly ruining it.

If you want to do it yourself in a simple forge, go with 1080, but if you are sending it out, it could be any steel, but you may not want to invest in something expensive like Damascus or 10v. Personally, I get my steel from Rob at knifemaker.ca, but you will be able to find more local steel. You can also get O1 and A2 at places like fastenal and other industrial supplies.
 
Well, I'm not a knife snob, I just felt that building a burner and figuring out hot to temper the steel would be beyond by skill level.

I would be happy with 1055, 1085 steel or aus 8, I've read these are good cheap steel. i figured if it breaks or wears out I can always make another one no big deal. Ideally I would love to make a knife at some point out of vg-10 as well but that is way down the road.
 
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