nice watered hanshee (photos)

I believe that this is pattern welded and not wootz. Also, the layering in this blade is "coarser" than what is generally seen in wootz. If fellow forumite Achim is lurking perhaps he will comment ~ he is actually a student of the ancient steel and smelts his own. Yoohoo, Achim, are you out there?:)
 
From my understanding wootz wouldn't have that kind of pattern to it as seen in the photo.
The current term for 'watered' seems to be 'pattern welded steel'. Two or more types of steel are forged together and then etched with acid to bring out the patterns as the steel is randomly mixed(some smiths can control the pattern to a remarkable degree). Wootz is a rather crude mix of steel that seems to have a high percentage of carbides in it that makes for an incredible cutting edge. Often times it is not hardened and can bend with heavy chopping. It can then be straightened back to origional shape. This is my recollection and my memory isn't photographic. I'm certain anybody with a basic background in metalurgy can fill in gaps.
 
more photos from Rod:

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Another beautiful piece!!!!:cool: :D

Rod is there any chance of a full length closeup of the Sword of Shiva on this one?
What I can see of it looks beautifully executed!!!!!!!:cool: :D
 
The terminology surrounding 'damascus' steel is rather confusing. This is what I believe to be the basic situation though:

'damascus' is a general term, and is applied to a variety of different techniques which result in these sorts of 'wavy' patterns. I believe the term is now thought to originate in the appearance of the pattern, likened to damascus fabric. Or it may be that Damascus (the city) served as a distribution centre, as the South Indian makers of 'wootz' steel took care to keep its origin somewhat secret.

I believe 'watered' is another general term, I would presume referring to the pattern again. Alternately, perhaps it is most correctly applied only to 'wootz' steel, but I doubt this. Possibly the term 'watered' might also originate in the fact that for all types of 'damascus' some sort of acidic etchant is required to bring out the pattern.


There seem to be two basic types of 'damascus steel'.

The first type (I think the oldest technique) is the type made (roughly, in layman's terms) by mixing iron with sources of carbon, and 'cooking' it in a crucible or the like. This produces a material which is hetregenous in make-up, with the carbon content varying through the steel itself. This is generally thought to have advantages in producing a relatively hard steel, which is not too brittle (as high carbon allows the blade to be hard, and also retain a better edge, but also tends to make it brittle and prone to shatter).

The first type is various called 'true damascus', 'wootz' (steel), 'ukku' (steel), crucible steel, and probably other terms as well..

The last term, 'crucible steel', is perhaps more general, not applying only to (Indian-made) 'ukku' or 'wootz', but also to similar products produced elsewhere but perhaps differing in certain respects. It seems that Central Asia and also Russia have produced 'crucible steel'. I don't believe any of this type of steel is made in India any longer, perhaps not since the 19th century? So I think all modern wootz steel is either Russian-produced, or at least produced via the Russian technique.

Wootz steel was apparently imported into classical/mediaeval Europe sometimes (esp. into Rome?), but it requires to be forged at somewhat lower temperatures than 'regular' steel of the mediaeval (& earlier) periods, so European smiths in general did not have that much success in using it.


The other type of steel seems to originate in Europe (and perhaps independently elsewhere), and is not made in a crucible or any such thing, but rather consists of pieces of steel (of varying carbon contents) being stacked together and forged, usually twisted together, producing a steel billet. This technique is various named 'mechanical damascus', 'pattern-welded/welding' and other names I'm forgetting.

The earliest types of these sorts of blades were apparently made in the late B.C. or early A.D. period by Celtic smiths, and also later by Roman smiths it appears - though many of these types were not 'twisted together' and thus would not have produced these sorts of patterns, or probably have been as durable either (this sort is often called 'piled' rather than 'pattern-welded'). The more well-known examples of this technique were made primarily in Germanic areas, including Scandinavia, and probably England (at least in Kent). Part of the reason for their introduction seems to be that the Germanic peoples in general did not have access to very high quality steel (they did not mine), and relied largely on 'iron blooms' found in bogs. The pattern-welding technique allowed for stronger blades despite the lower quality steel. Post 1100 A.D. or so pattern-welded blades do not seem to be produced very much in Europe, presumably because Germanic smiths gained access to better quality iron/steel to work with, and as pattern-welding is more time- (& skill-)intensive, these swords were generally no longer made. Though the older pattern-welded swords were highly valued even in the later period.

There are also obviously examples of Asian/Indian mechanical damascus, but I am not so familiar with their history.


In general, the 'true damascus', 'wootz' steel has more 'natural'-looking ripples, and usually the pattern is more complicated and 'smaller'/'finer'. 'Mechanical damascus' tends to produce less-random patterns, and the older examples (e.g., 7th century A.D. etc.) tend to show few, large bands, in contrast to the sort of 'rippling' of the wootz. But modern day mechincal damascus can be made in many patterns, some of them probably being difficult to distinguish from 'wootz' except by trained eyes.


just my general notion of these things. I am not an expert on this, so some details may or may not be accurate.

more links on these types of steel available on my page:

http://www.jnanam.net/shastra/

under the 'General Steel Info' section near the bottom of the page.

cheers,
--B.
 
Thanks for that Beo, if the Hanshee is pattern welded (I believe it is)
what term would you apply to the second example.
 
Originally posted by Rod Allen
Thanks for that Beo, if the Hanshee is pattern welded (I believe it is)
what term would you apply to the second example.

Yes, the hanshee has thicker 'ripples' which I would associate with pattern-welding (though I am not an expert on this topic...).

The 2nd example does appear to be a (very nice!) example of Wootz/Ukku steel, so I would assume any of the 'true damascus' terms could be applied to it. Probably 'wootz' is the best (in terms of accuracy & general currency).

--B.
 
Hi Folks,
Rod, I think a couple of mine may fit that catogary, but like most traditional old kukris of laminated or wootz steel they have never been etched to show it! What I think are lamination faults or blisters are visible in one of them though!

I would be interested in people opinions of whether they are or not though! I think they are but I could be wrong!

Rod Did you have yours etched yourself or were they already done when you found them?


If anyone can help post photos on to the forum ,I can email them to them. I could post them on another site but then the neccasary clarity would be missing!

Spiral
 
Originally posted by spiraltwista
I would be interested in people opinions of whether they are or not though! I think they are but I could be wrong!

Rod Did you have yours etched yourself or were they already done when you found them?

Spiral

What I understand from the sources on the Internet I have read the old Wootz steel didn't need etching to bring the pattern out as it was in the steel.
However if the Wootz was worked too hot it would homogenize and become like any other steel and without the magical properties of properly forged Wootz.:(
I also understand that Wootz is a very small patterned steel compared with most pattern welded Damascus.
I have seen some pattern welded Damascus with the popular "Ladder Pattern" that approached the pattern of true Wootz though and would have been hard pressed for anyone other than a real expert to tell the difference.
I know I wouldn't have been able to tell. I know I would dearly love to have a Wootz steel knife of any age, but would prefer a new one so that I could use it and compare it myself to the modern Mega-Steels we have today.
I wonder which would turn out to be the best all around steel?
I wonder especially how it would compare to Busse's INFI.:D
 
Spiral, both were as I found them, as per Yvsa's post I dont think the Hanshee has been etched at least in recent times. Rod
 
Hi folks!,

Yvsa I may be sticking my neck out here, But by my understanding of Lord Eggerton of Tattons, work is that wootz was etched with "zag" {native sulphate of iron} to bring out the pattern.

Also Lord Eggerton states the ladder effect in true wootz was created by mechanicaly forging 2 different bars of wootz together to achive the ladder pattern. Eg. pattern welded wootz! {double the beuty!}

I may be wrong Rod, but I am, pretty certain yout hanshee is etched, it looks like it to me anyway!:D

Nobody wants to see my pretty kukris? thats a shame,I think both of mine a laminated, but anyway they are lovely examples! Ivory & all sorts!

Cheers!
Spiral ;)
 
Spiral. You are certainly more knowledgeable than I on the subject, so most likely correct,however knowing the provenance on the hanshee it must have been done many moons ago.
Now that I have crawled Post your pics!!! Rod
 
Rod,
I dont think I am more expert than you, I just have the reference material to hand, a good memmory & I look at a lot of old swords ,kukris, knives, etc!

I wish I could post photos direct on the forum , doing it through AOLs photo site shrinks them so much!

Ill hang on for the time bieng, & see if anyone whos good at that sort of thing can post them here for me! If no one does Ill just email them to you, anyway!

Spiral
 
I know what you mean Rod, but I dont want it to be a hassle to anyone, perhaps I should go for gold membership, then I can post pics & sell knives & stuff as well!

Spiral
 
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