Nine-Inch One-Piece Models

For the sake of argument,let's say that the rate of return is simular.

Tell me; when you fondle, hold, photograph, examine and appreciate the design details and quality of craftsmanship of your stock certificates, IPOs and mutual fund statments, does it compare to the bond we share with fine steel, i.e. CRK?
 
James kind of put it in a nutshell, (Thanks, James.) but if you require an explanation, I will be happy to oblige.

I will go into detail this time as this subject has come up before.

There is a communist philosophy that condemns profit and demonizes those who make it. If you are of that philosophy then you may as well stop reading now. You won't understand what I'm about to say.

Some folks out there seem to have the notion that every consumer has a "right" to the lowest possible price on any product, and that the dealer is obligated to sell at that price, whether he or she makes a reasonable profit or not.

These same people also seem to believe that charging more than "retail" on a product is somehow wrong or even dishonest. Heck, some folks even act as if charging full retail is wrong.

All of these notions are KAKA. (I know that's a 2 cent word to express a 25 cent idea but that's about as simple as I can make it.)

As a dealer, I own these products and, therefore, have the right to sell them at whatever price I deem necessary to make a reasonable profit. I set the profit level based on the goals I have to meet in order to stay in business and make a decent living. How decent is entirely up to me. I decide what is a reasonable profit, no one else.

As James so eloquently pointed out, we're not talking food, fuel or shelter here. These are luxury items, like fine jewelry or automobiles.

If one wants to sparkle one can buy a fine diamond for several thousand dollars or buy a cubic zirconium that looks like a diamond and save some money. If one wants to travel in style they can buy a Mercedes or a BMW. If all they want is transportation they can by a Yugo or a Chevy. The good stuff will cost more. CRK makes the good stuf.

Regarding "retail" on a product such as the Kathathu or any other limited run knife, I believe that there is no actual "retail" price. CRK's web page doesn't "suggest retail", it lists the price at which CRK will sell these knives to their customers if they are available. This is also the base price from which they establish their dealer discount, or wholesale price, which, since these are considered to be in the custom category by Chris, is very slim.

Chris Reeve puts out a fine catalog/brochure that lists all of their products and, to a certain extent, the available variations.

In that catalog, there are their standard (dare I say common?) models that are available to dealers and consumers on a regular basis. They have a suggested retail price and a wholesale price that makes for a reasonable profit. On those products, I charge about the same as the catalog. This applies to standard plain Sebenzas (large and small), Umfaans and The basic One Piece Range. The Unique Decorated, Damascus, Wood Inlay and any other special production or limited edition products all get their prices "bumped" anywhere from $25.00 and up, depending on model.

There is a very small (relatively speaking) markup from wholesale to "retail" on items such as these, as well as, their damascus bladed, wood inlayed or jeweled Sebenzas.

If one happens to be lucky enough to get in and obtain one at CRK's price or find a dealer that charges the same then that person can consider themself fortunate and I say good for them. I begrudge no one their good fortune. Anytime anyone finds a bargain they are entitled to it.

Then there is the price at which dealers, such as myself, choose to sell them. That price is directed toward the market each dealer serves. It is the same with Mercedes, BMW, Rolls Royce, Ferrari and any number of fine, scarce, exclusive products.


If these were high volume, fast moving items in which multiple sales would add up to a reasonable profit per month, then there would be little need to add a premium to the price. However, with products such as these, that is not the case. These items move rather slowly relative to other, mass-produced, items. There is no "volume" in these sales.

Granted, I do sell other products that generate profit and income. When everything is combined, it all adds up but, even then, the one or two sales of these products a month will not generate enough income, at the established profit level, to justify my carrying them so I add a modest premium to the price to compensate for the reduced "volume".

I am a businessman. My purpose in doing what I do is to make money. If I am to continue doing what I do, the money must be sufficient to justify my efforts. The fact that I like what I do and enjoy the company of and association with folks who have the same interests and appreciation for fine steel and sleek design in edged tools as I do is a definite bonus but it doesn't pay the bills.

I am not a full time accountant or software engineer or LEO or government bureaurocrat, doing this part time for fun. This IS my day job. This is my livelyhood. I have to make money at it or else. I have a military retirement that covers some of my living expenses but it isn't a living wage, especially in and around San Diego.

I have chosen this as my "career" and I will do anything I have to do that is legal, honest and ethical, to make it work and if that includes charging a premium price for premium products, so be it.

Chris Reeve knives has and will disassociate themselves from anybody whose business practices they object to or disagree with. They have not done that with me. I do not try to hide or obscure my policy.

The beauty of a free market is that the consumer has the lattitude to shop for the best price that he or she can find. The internet has taken that practice to higher levels than ever before. One can find tremendous deals all over the place.

It is axiomatic that if you shop long enough you will find what you want at the price you want. It is also a fact that as soon as you close the deal on your latest and best bargain you will find a better deal a couple of clicks down the road. It's only a matter of how bad do you want it and how long are you willing to wait?

I charge what the market will bear. So far, the market has supported my prices. Are they priced so that everyone will buy one? Not particularly but, if someone really wants one bad enough, they will pay the price.

These aren't bargain basement products or discount items. They are premium goods that go for premium prices. One cutlery store in the area used to sell plain large Sebenzas for $450.00 (regularly) before I started carrying CRK as a standard stock item. They still charge premium prices on the decorated and limited edition models. Much higher premiums than I do, and they sell them.

Ralphtt, you expressed anger at the way I do my business. If my explanation doesn't satisfy you, feel free to continue this via e-mail. No point in turning this forum into a battleground.

I don't begrudge you your bargains, don't begrudge me my profits.

As to why would someone buy from me, you would have to ask them. There are plenty who do.




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Dennis Wright
("Have a knife day!")

wrightknife@ixpres.com
 
Not really anger, Dennis. Just couldn't find an icon for incredulity.
rolleyes.gif


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- - - - - -

ralph
 
I usually use the
rolleyes.gif
icon for that myself.
smile.gif


And if, in some market, somebody is willing to pay $450 for a large plain Sebenza, to avoid having to hunt for it or wait for it, then that's what it's worth in that time and place.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
I'll add my opinion, I figure most every knife more or less doubles in price every step it takes between you and the manufacturer.

Take some xyz knife, it costs $10 to manufacture, the company sells it to a distributer for $20, retailer gets it from a distributer for $40 and they sell it to you for $80. ( Web sites sell it for $65
smile.gif
)

I don't believe the same rate of price increases occurs with knives from CR. They are still not cheap, but, IMO, a better value than almost any other folder.

DaveH

 
Dennis,

That was a fine lesson on the free enterprise system! We should all periodically review that and Business 1.01.

ralpftt,
"incredulity" - good word - well spoken. Hopefully Dennis' review helped to change your perceptions. He is correct, for what he pays for the knives in question, it is not profitable to sell them at CRK's selling price.

John

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John F Jensen
"Your Quality Distributor"
619-475-3633
 
John . . . my opinion of Dennis's review is "BS". He's using that (imo) faulty logic to justify increasing his prices above what the manufacturer clearly states as Retail Price on his website. http://www.chrisreeve.com/price.html
I have no quarrel with Dennis inflating these prices . . . but I will certainly never be a customer of his; or of any other dealer who subscribes to this philosophy. And I have purchased four CRK knives from various dealers at the CRK suggested retail price. Some were one of a kind decorated Sebenzas, but were priced per the CRK price list. This is my approach. . . YMMV. regards, ralph
 
DaveH your estimate of the increase between the manufacturer and the consumer is a bit off.

With most factory knives the difference is considerably smaller. A manufacturer who made your knife for $10.00 will probably sell it to a distributor for somewnere around $15.00 who then sells it to a dealer for less than $20.00 who then tries to get somewhere between $27.00 to $40.00 for it. ($21.00 to $30.00 if they're a web site). That's closer to reality on most mass produced products. Margins tend to be even slimmer on the higher priced products.

CRK doesn't use distributors so their structure is a bit different and the difference between dealer cost and suggested retail is a bit smaller, especially on the high end stuff.

Ralphtt, since I don't have to justify my prices to you or anyone else, how can the logic be faulty?

If I worked for CRK or represented them as their agent or outlet, it might be different but that is not the case here. I am an independent, authorized dealer. I own the products and can dispose of them at my discression, at whatever price I choose.

If some dealer was to offer their CRK products at, say, 20% below the CRK price would they, then, be castigated for not selling at "retail"? I doubt it. Would CRK, then, be condemned for selling too high? Possibly.

CRK's price list only applies to CRK. It is a listing of the prices at which they sell their products to the public, ie, THEIR retail prices. If other dealers choose to use that schedule, that is their perogative. It's called the free market.

MY retail prices, on some of their products, are somewhat different. On other products, they are the same. Also, if you notice, the Kathathu and other longblades aren't listed on that "retail" price schedule.

The logic isn't faulty and I'm certainly not delivering "BS". It makes perfect sense to me.

As to whether or not you would ever be one of my customers, that's your choice...and mine.



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Dennis Wright
("Have a knife day!")

wrightknife@ixpres.com
 
Well, i just wanted to say a few things. I do not want to get involved in any kind of fight on here, so that's not what i'm posting about.

First thing, i think you should ring every company that produces dictionaries and recomend the addition of Kathuthu (sp?) as "A nine inch vorpal dagger" (brilliant choice of words james)

Second thing... I want one BAAAAD, but there are a few problems, the most major of which being that i cannot afford it in any way, shape or form. It is also illegal to import. But i can dream can't i?

Now, a small rant on another subject.

Australian Knife shops. - I don't care what the exchange rate is, their prices are obscene. The markups are huge, and i can't afford knives except over the net. Some examples are a cold steel SRK, generally around 200-220. A project 2? 800, minimum. So don't complain too much about the prices you pay.

James

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The beast we are, lest the beast we become.
 
James, you have a legitimate reason to complain. I feel for ya man. CRK products would be nothing more than a pipe dream to me too if I had to deal with prices like that.
 
AU$800 = US$467, which is still quite a bit more than the "stateside" price. When a product crosses an ocean, things like that happen. Some people go to the trouble of ordering directly from overseas for that reason, though shipping costs and import duties can eat up a lot of savings, depending on the destination, and of course things take longer and long-distance service can't be as good as the local kind, all else being equal.

A few people on the far side of an ocean or two have bought American knives from me for that reason, and there are European knives on my web page that you can find for a lot less in Europe. For instance, coming down to a much lower price range than CRK, a Swedish carbon steel "Mora knife" that I'll sell cheap on my web page for $10 is, I've heard, even cheaper in a store in Sweden at $5 or something like that.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 07-13-2000).]
 
What was the real topic?

I've paid ":retail", less than "retail" and "market". Dennis's and James's prices are right where they should be for the day. If you don't want the knife: don't pay the price. Stop beating on the dealers for shelling out their money to have knives for you!!!

If you can find the blade you want (today) for cheaper: Buy it! Don't waste our time beating on guys that can give you CRK blades 24/7.....

Thanks to James and Dennis,

Michael

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He who has smelt the smoke is never free again...
 
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