Niobium in place of vanadium? Any benift?

DeadboxHero

DeadboxHero

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I read niobium is the hardest smallest carbide former

Would a steel like s90v benefit from 8% niobium theanstead of vanadium?
An s90n so to speak.

I know its present in S110v and small amounts in s35vn

But if it was the main carbide former in the steel and with proper heat treatment (hard with fine grain) would we get both amazing edge holding because of carbide hardness yet amazing ease of Sharpening and edge taking due to the small carbides?
 
Carbide size is mostly controlled by processing, not by which element is used to form them. Niobium carbides are extremely hard, though I've not seen that they are harder than vanadium carbides. It's important to remember that carbides are typically listed as MC, not VC. The M can be either vanadium, niobium, or possibly other elements such as W, Mo, Cr or even Fe. Vanadium carbide will contain primarily vanadium, but not only vanadium. In other words, the carbides are not purely one type. One of the benefits of niobium is that it's presence reduces the amount of chromium in the MC and other carbides, thus improving corrosion resistance. Niobium carbides tend to form in the grains, not at the grain boundaries. This will generally be beneficial to toughness and ductility, with little decrease in wear resistance. I don't know of any steels with primarily niobium carbide, though I don't know why. It could just be due to cost and lack of performance gains.
 
Probably not going to get a better answer then that.

Thank you me2

I can't seem to find any good resources on powerded metallurgy that's knife specific
It seems to be either proprietary knowledge or too esoteric and new.

Do you know of any current in depth resources?
Thanks man.
 
To get knife specific info on that type of steel is difficult .The market just isn't there , an old problem with knife making.
But me2 has the answer , vanaduim likes grain boundaries while columbium [ niobium ] can be happy anywhere !
Columbium was discovered in the USA and we called it columbium in honor of Christofer Columbus who was from Italy ! Nothing was done with it then it was rediscovered in Europe where they called it niobium .
Niobe was the daughter of Tantalus .Anyway most now call it Niobium the girly metal !
 
COST and general availability being a big factor from what I have heard.
me2 said:
Carbide size is mostly controlled by processing, not by which element is used to form them. Niobium carbides are extremely hard, though I've not seen that they are harder than vanadium carbides. It's important to remember that carbides are typically listed as MC, not VC. The M can be either vanadium, niobium, or possibly other elements such as W, Mo, Cr or even Fe. Vanadium carbide will contain primarily vanadium, but not only vanadium. In other words, the carbides are not purely one type. One of the benefits of niobium is that it's presence reduces the amount of chromium in the MC and other carbides, thus improving corrosion resistance. Niobium carbides tend to form in the grains, not at the grain boundaries. This will generally be beneficial to toughness and ductility, with little decrease in wear resistance. I don't know of any steels with primarily niobium carbide, though I don't know why. It could just be due to cost and lack of performance gains.
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I did some research on this recently, and the main reason is that high niobium steel just doesnt melt well. It has an incredibly low solubility in iron as well as chromium. Here is a quote from a study done "Due to the viscosity, melts with
more than about 3% niobium cannot be poured in tool moulds and cannot
be gas atomized. For this reason the niobium content in tool steels is limited
today to about 2%."

Granted, its 5 years old but as far as I know it remains true. While cost is always a factor, the truth of the matter is in industry, you need to choose the best. If a high niobium carbide steel was viable to produce and mould, im sure some one would be using it.

Although it does make we wonder how it would behave in a cintered powder metal product...

http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/21_269_287_pdf_18759.pdf
 
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I can't see any improvement. With the proper HT of the mentioned steels, it would me moot for any small gain. In other words, I would think the gain, if any, would not be enough to be noticed.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Probably not going to get a better answer then that.

Thank you me2

I can't seem to find any good resources on powerded metallurgy that's knife specific
It seems to be either proprietary knowledge or too esoteric and new.

Do you know of any current in depth resources?
Thanks man.
Click to expand...

Have a look a Niolox steel (aka SB1 / 1.4153.03)
 
Hengelo_77 said:
Have a look a Niolox steel (aka SB1 / 1.4153.03)
Click to expand...

Not quite what I was looking for.
Doesn't seem to get a high amount of niobium without the CPM process.



With the CPM process, s110v has almost 4%


It would be amazing to have a steel that sharpens and take an edge like 52100 yet is stainless and has the wear resistance of s90v.
S90n unicorn steel.
 
I haven't used 52100, but have heard AEB-L has similar qualities. I like AEB-L for a stainless steel.
 
Niolox/SB-1 is a cast steel albeit a very good one from what I have heard. A good example of what a small amount of niobium might be able to do for you is S35VN. the addition of a small amount of niobium supposedly "fixed" some of the brittleness and chipping issues that we saw in S30V but making the steel a bit tougher while retain the same abrasion resistance.
 
Lo/Rez said:
I haven't used 52100, but have heard AEB-L has similar qualities. I like AEB-L for a stainless steel.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah good stuff, sharpens like a dream but the wear resistance is low.
jdm61 said:
Niolox/SB-1 is a cast steel albeit a very good one from what I have heard. A good example of what a small amount of niobium might be able to do for you is S35VN. the addition of a small amount of niobium supposedly "fixed" some of the brittleness and chipping issues that we saw in S30V but making the steel a bit tougher while retain the same abrasion resistance.
Click to expand...

Yea man, I'm just day dreaming about the possibilities if the niobium is taken to the max like the vanadium in the other CPM steels.

But I don't know what I don't know.

I can't be the first to think of it.

There must be complications or perhaps it's in the works for years to come

S35vn and S110 v are realitivily new steels made in 2005 and 2009

Perhaps things are in the works?

Perhaps... Aliens

Hahahha
 
That article talking about Niolox only being popular with knife makers in Europe doesn't tell the entire story. It is made by Lohmann, a smaller company and it apparently VERY popular in the food service/processing industry. The primary reason that it is not popular with knife makers over here is that it is not sold in "raw" form in our market. You could problem get it from Achim Wirtz or one of the other German steel guys, but it might be a tad pricey. Even some of the stuff from the big European companies like the Bohler-Uddeholm steels have only recently been made available to knife makers in the US. Hell, a lot of common steels mad win the US were kind of hard for us to get until a few years ago. How many times have we heard the old story of "I would use that steel if only such and such steel company wasn't such a pain in the ass to deal with?" BG-42 and pretty much anything from Japan come to mind.
 
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jdm61 said:
That article talking about Niolox only being popular with knife makers in Europe doesn't tell the entire story. It is made by Lohmann, a smaller company and it apparently VERY popular in the food service/processing industry. The primary reason that it is not popular with knife makers over here is that it is not sold in "raw" form in our market. You could problem get it from Achim Wirtz or one of the other German steel guys, but it might be a tad pricey. Even some of the stuff from the big European companies like the Bohler-Uddeholm steels have only recently been made available to knife makers in the US. Hell, a lot of common steels mad win the US were kind of hard for us to get until a few years ago. How many times have we heard the old story of "I would use that steel if only such and such steel company wasn't such a pain in the ass to deal with?" BG-42 and pretty much anything from Japan come to mind.
Click to expand...

Becut from Bestar in Remscheid, not Niolox, is the steel that used primarily in the food processing industry for the cutting blades in industrial food processing machines. I have used both and I like Becut better than Niolox. Both are stainless alloys containing Niobium.

Becut is a much tougher steel than Niolox in my experience and I have made hundreds of blades from both. I no longer use Niolox and will continue using Becut for any new run of Ryback kitchen knives I produce.

If you want to try a knife made from Becut, buy one of my Basic Field Knives made from it. You won't be disappointed. My Becut kitchen knives are currently sold out.

As far as I know, I was about the first knife maker to use Becut for hand held knives years ago when it as suggested to me by a company here in Brandenburg who produce industrial cutting tools for food processing. Knives made from Becut will still cut well even after they are no longer "shaving sharp" and the stuff is really tough. It performs best at HRC58-59 and needs proper cryogenic treatment during heat treating. The only down side to Becut is the name "Becut" which I think sounds kind of ... not too cool.

You should be able to buy all of the Becut you want directly from Bestar, they have a US office. Expect to have a minimum order of a large sheet though, I know they will not sell less than that.
 


These alloys DO seem really cool, almost like sandvick steels with niobium.
I bet they sharpen great.
 
Becut takes a very fine edge, it is difficult to get a nice satin finish on the this steel, specially if the work is done with automated grinders. Of course nobody in the food processing industry is interested in cosmetic finishes, they are more interested in Becut's certification for use with foods by the German govt. Becut is very rust resistent. And like I said, you are not going to break one of these blades, you might bend the tip if you drop it, but so far no breaks.
 
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