Nitrogen steel discussion

Robert Erickson

Robert Erickson

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
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I recently had the opportunity to work on some Vanax sent to me by a customer. I'm interested in starting a discussion regarding these steels. I'm intrigued by their chemistry and metallurgy. I'm also interested in hearing from others that have worked with this or other Nitrogen steels.

Having never worked with Nitrogen steels before I didn't know what to expect. I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it was to work with both pre and post HT. With it's 3.5% Vanadium I expected (maybe erroneously) it to be a bit of a challenge to finish. It was as easy as AEB-L to get a good hand sanded satin finish. It was also straight forward to heat treat. I just followed the protocol from the Data Sheet and got it to RC60.5. (Austenitize at 1975 for 30 min., 4 hours in LN and 2 X 390 deg tempers.)

Any thoughts or experiences?
 
Ive got one tester ready for handle in z-FiNiT. At Rc61, I found it harder to grind than 52100 or W2 at that hardness. Once I have it in use I’ll report back the edge stability and holding. My initial impressions are positive.
 
Robert Erickson said:
I recently had the opportunity to work on some Vanax sent to me by a customer. I'm interested in starting a discussion regarding these steels. I'm intrigued by their chemistry and metallurgy. I'm also interested in hearing from others that have worked with this or other Nitrogen steels.

Having never worked with Nitrogen steels before I didn't know what to expect. I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it was to work with both pre and post HT. With it's 3.5% Vanadium I expected (maybe erroneously) it to be a bit of a challenge to finish. It was as easy as AEB-L to get a good hand sanded satin finish. It was also straight forward to heat treat. I just followed the protocol from the Data Sheet and got it to RC60.5. (Austenitize at 1975 for 30 min., 4 hours in LN and 2 X 390 deg tempers.)

Any thoughts or experiences?
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I like it.

Edge holding like S30v but much tougher, sharpens and finishes better and won't rust in saltwater.

Only thing I hate is the cost.

Great to work with.

zwQrEDH.jpg
 
It is pricey stuff. I guess it's tough to get those pesky Nitrogen molecules into the steel.
That's interesting Warren, I wonder what about the chemistry makes it harder to finish than then others?
 
Robert Erickson said:
It is pricey stuff. I guess it's tough to get those pesky Nitrogen molecules into the steel.
That's interesting Warren, I wonder what about the chemistry makes it harder to finish than then others?
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This is only one blade left over from the sample Chuck sent me for the test pieces. I cut out 9 Charpy samples, and had enough left for a small kiritsuki. I’m not sure why it’s harder to grind than the simpler steels. Nothing in the composition that I can see suggests it should be harder to grind.

I’ll be using more in the future to test. I’m already thinking this might be a go to steel for me.
 
Willie71 said:
This is only one blade left over from the sample Chuck sent me for the test pieces. I cut out 9 Charpy samples, and had enough left for a small kiritsuki. I’m not sure why it’s harder to grind than the simpler steels. Nothing in the composition that I can see suggests it should be harder to grind.
I might have to try some Z FiNit and compare it to the Vanax that I have.
I’ll be using more in the future to test. I’m already thinking this might be a go to steel for me.
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Mo2 said:
Found this a while back
http://knifenews.com/are-we-entering-the-era-of-nitrogen-based-blade-steels/

Its an interesting read on this subject.
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Thanks, my sense is that unless it comes down in price it's going to be a niche steel for those that need extreme corrosion resistance.
 
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These steels are designed for corrosion resistance and toughness. I was disappointed to find out that nitrides are not as hard as carbides. Even vanadium nitrides are not as hard as lots of commonly formed carbides.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
These steels are designed for corrosion resistance and toughness. I was disappointed to find out that nitrides are not as hard as carbides. Even vanadium nitrides are not as hard as lots of commonly formed carbides.

Hoss
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Hoss, do you have any resources or charts on nitrides and vanadium nitrides?
 
Robert Erickson said:
Thanks, my sense is that unless it comes down in price it's going to be a niche steel for those that need extreme corrosion resistance.
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It might just be that my muscle memory for steels I more commonly work with does not generate the right amount of force for efficient grinding.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Hoss, do you have any resources or charts on nitrides and vanadium nitrides?
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One source is the comparison between wear resistance of Vancron 40 and Vanadis 8, which are both ~8% vanadium steels, but Vancron 40 replaces some of the carbon with nitrogen. Uddeholm gives a score of 65% for abrasion resistance of Vancron 40 and 100% for Vanadis 8.
 
Larrin said:
One source is the comparison between wear resistance of Vancron 40 and Vanadis 8, which are both ~8% vanadium steels, but Vancron 40 replaces some of the carbon with nitrogen. Uddeholm gives a score of 65% for abrasion resistance of Vancron 40 and 100% for Vanadis 8.
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I'm loving the write ups on knife steel nerds

I can't wait till you get to the nitrides.

I've been trying to find more concrete data about them but it's just been alot of information about "nitriding" or other processes and threories that don't directly relate to knives.

I haven't found anything about exact hardness, just that they are lumped in with borides, sulfides.

So naturally I was curious wanted to know what others with more experience and knowledge have found on the subject.

Thanks
 
DevinT said:
These steels are designed for corrosion resistance and toughness. I was disappointed to find out that nitrides are not as hard as carbides. Even vanadium nitrides are not as hard as lots of commonly formed carbides.

Hoss
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Ahh maybe this is why Vanax with it's 3.5% vanadium wasn't that bad to finish.
 
I talked to Carpenter about BD1N. I asked what made BD1N perform so much better than BD1. The response was "We added nitrogen and so it is a better steel." The Carpenter sales representative would not (could not?) give any other information.

We tested BD1 a few years ago and it is a very mediocre cutlery steel. I want to understand how adding .10%-.15% nitrogen turns an average steel into a steel with excellent performance. I hope the performance upgrade is not marketing hype.

We've tested the following nitrogen steels:
14C28N
Bohler N360
Bohler N680
H-1 (Spyderco)
Vanax 35 (we will test Vanax 37 soon)
Z-FiNit (Cronidur 30 = LC200N = Z-FiNit, the same steel with different names)

An attribute I like about nitrogen steels (.20% of nitrogen or more) is excellent toughness. I prefer knives that do not chip. This is very important for kitchen knives. Nobody wants to look for, or worse, find razor sharp steel chips in their food.

If I had to pick a favorite it would be Z-FiNit. We've forged multiple integral bolster knives from this steel and tested them extensively. It is an excellent choice for kitchen knives. All our Z-FiNit kitchen knives are ground very thin at the edge. None have chipped, they are easy to resharpen and I feel the edge holding exceeds our custom 52100 chef knife.

I've been pestering a good friend to test Z-FiNit for kitchen knives. He did me a favor years ago and pushed me until I tested AEB-L. I'm glad he did not stop until tested AEB-L. I hope I can return the favor with Z-FiNit.

Chuck
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
I talked to Carpenter about BD1N. I asked what made BD1N perform so much better than BD1. The response was "We added nitrogen and so it is a better steel." The Carpenter sales representative would not (could not?) give any other information.

We tested BD1 a few years ago and it is a very mediocre cutlery steel. I want to understand how adding .10%-.15% nitrogen turns an average steel into a steel with excellent performance. I hope the performance upgrade is not marketing hype.

We've tested the following nitrogen steels:
14C28N
Bohler N360
Bohler N680
H-1 (Spyderco)
Vanax 35 (we will test Vanax 37 soon)
Z-FiNit (Cronidur 30 = LC200N = Z-FiNit, the same steel with different names)

An attribute I like about nitrogen steels (.20% of nitrogen or more) is excellent toughness. I prefer knives that do not chip. This is very important for kitchen knives. Nobody wants to look for, or worse, find razor sharp steel chips in their food.

If I had to pick a favorite it would be Z-FiNit. We've forged multiple integral bolster knives from this steel and tested them extensively. It is an excellent choice for kitchen knives. All our Z-FiNit kitchen knives are ground very thin at the edge. None have chipped, they are easy to resharpen and I feel the edge holding exceeds our custom 52100 chef knife.

I've been pestering a good friend to test Z-FiNit for kitchen knives. He did me a favor years ago and pushed me until I tested AEB-L. I'm glad he did not stop until tested AEB-L. I hope I can return the favor with Z-FiNit.

Chuck
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I hope you guys get some bd1n.
It's killer at 63hrc
 
I am interested to use a nitrogen steel for my kitchen knives. I use AEBL and NitroV at the moment but am not finding much of any benefit with NitroV...the higher working hardness has not yielded the results i was hoping for....I think it is just more expensive AEBL. Anyway....

The other steel I have used a bit of is 20CV...How does Zfinit compare to 20CV in terms of edge holding?
 
timos- said:
How does Zfinit compare to 20CV in terms of edge holding?
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20CV and M390 have superior edge holding compared to Z-FiNit. The edge holding of M390 & 20CV is very close to S90V, but they are much easier to work and resharpen than S90V.

I do not recommend 20CV & M390 for kitchen knives. IMO they are too likely to chip at high hardness.

Chuck
 
Nitrogen steels sure are an interesting topic i'd like to learn something more about!
Some nitrides are infact very hard, think about CBN inserts. But i was under the impression that the main aim of adding nitrogen into the steel was intended more about strenghtening the matrix (replacing carbon) than for adding wear resistance (replacing carbides), allowing chrome to be into solution rather than fallen out into carbides. But that is just what i pictured in my mind and i could be and probably am very well out of track!!!
 
Ok, maybe I should ask how does wear resistance in zfinit compare to say AEBL or 154CM? I think for a kitchen knife steel it would need to be significant increase over aebl. At least as good as 154cm.
My curiosity is definitely piqued but toughness is a bit overkill for the type of knives I have been making. Chipping blades isnt much of a concern cutting soft vegetables and boneless proteins.
 
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