No more fleece.

[HoB]

In what sense is wool more "efficient"? fleece has a higher insulative value for the weight than wool

Well, I was talking about the fiber, you are talking about the garment product. You are comparing apples and oranges to some degree. Compressed fleece does not have a higher insulative value than felted wool for example. Since the wool fibers retain their shape even in a dense garment, they retain a great portion of their insulating properties, while fleece doesn't. If you take a feece pullover or blanket and lie down on a hard, cold surface, the insulating properties go to hell, while the insulating value for a felted wool blanket is deminished only little.

The real question is whether you engineer the airpockets from the structure or whether you put the airpockets into the structure. Seems like a minor point but of technically rather important. If you pack expanded perlite as dense as you can (since their are a form of glass you can pack them pretty tight), without crushing the particles, you still have much better insulation than from any fibrous product, because the air is already in the perlite particles. To give you some numbers (all in mW/mK): nitrogen: 26, cork: 50, felt: 40, glass wool: 40, balsa wood: 40, expanded perlite: 2

Hey, I am not trying to sell wool here. I am just viewing this from an abstract point of view with a good deal of admiration for mother nature.

 

[elelbean]

I have several of the newest fleece fabrics. I usually wear them for casual wear; not for camping or outdoors stuff. I too find that a wool sweater or jacket of the same thickness as fleece is not only warmer, but also covers a wider temperature range. Also, a lot of the new fleece fabrics can take a long time to dry once they get wet in cold conditions. A lot of the Windblock fleece has a tighter weave which traps a lot of moisture, and the fleece with membranes are even worse. Regardless, I am not impressed with fleece once it gets wet. It doesn't suck up as much water as wool, but there is always moisture you can't completely get rid of. Especially on the thicker weights and wind block fleece. I find damp wool keeps me much much warmer than damp fleece.
Also, I've just always had a preference for natural materials. A waxed cotton Filson hat or Tilley hat looks and feels much better to me than those cheap looking nylon Sombrero hats.

I always like showing people this link. Wool and cotton can be just as light and warm as modern synthetics, and most find it less clammy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5076634.stm

 

[Thomas Linton]

Well, I was talking about the fiber, you are talking about the garment product. You are comparing apples and oranges to some degree. [/well]
I have only considered fleece vs. wool for garment purposes. I think that is what most of us are interested in.

Compressed fleece does not have a higher insulative value than felted wool for example. Since the wool fibers retain their shape even in a dense garment, they retain a great portion of their insulating properties, while fleece doesn't.

But some fleece is made with fibers have have four to seven tubular spaces inside each fiber. Those spaces remain under body weight according to tests of sleeping bags using such materials in a cotton-like configuration. The fleece, being far more dense, should resist reduction of insulative value even more.

And yes, wool felt is great stuff -- at a weight price.

The real question is whether you engineer the airpockets from the structure or whether you put the airpockets into the structure. Seems like a minor point but of technically rather important. If you pack expanded perlite as dense as you can (since their are a form of glass you can pack them pretty tight), without crushing the particles, you still have much better insulation than from any fibrous product, because the air is already in the perlite particles.

As with "hollow" polyester fibers.

To give you some numbers (all in mW/mK): nitrogen: 26, cork: 50, felt: 40, glass wool: 40, balsa wood: 40, expanded perlite: 2

Any numbers forr any polyester material?

Hey, I [Wool Advisory Board] am not trying to sell wool here. I am just viewing this from an abstract point of view with a good deal of admiration for mother nature.

[Smart ass insertion not in original.]

 

[Thomas Linton]

I have several of the newest fleece fabrics. I usually wear them for casual wear; not for camping or outdoors stuff.

Yes -- not for camping or outdoors stuff. Fleece is polular with the urban crowd due to the price, colors, many choices, comfort, and washability. Heck, they have been in Walmart and Target for almost a decade.

I too find that a wool sweater or jacket of the same thickness as fleece is not only warmer, but also covers a wider temperature range.

I find that polyester fleece is warmer for the weight and covers a wider range of temperatures and conditions as compared to wool.

Of course, I don't wear the "Wind Block" stuff because, for the most part, it is illogically engineered with the barrier layer next to the body (sweat bath when warm) and the fleece outside the barrier (wind takes away insulation value). I use a separate, full-length zipper wind barrier (AKA "coat") that allows a wide range of adjustment. This weekend, I encountered high 30's and low 40's with driving rain, high 20's with snow, and a sunny 48 with 45 mph winds (Can you spelll "no power for 45,000 customers" in the area?). I did just fine as did 27 others. A minority, to be fair, relied on wool. A couple "swear by wool."

The "Wind Block" stuff also seems stiff to me -- very "plasticy" (if that's a word).

Also, a lot of the new fleece fabrics can take a long time to dry once they get wet in cold conditions.

Don't buy such oddies. What are they -- fleece laminated with cotton? The Polartec fabrics and their ilk (Now that the patents have expired, there are generics.) are justly famous for hydophobic characteristics, unlike wool. That is, they do not absorb water at all, and water caught amongst the fibers is driven out by body heat alone. So to bed in damp fleece and wake up in dry fleece. Been there. Done that (not by choice). One of my fellow campers this weekend is a diver, and we compared notes on which brands of fleece we like the best. He wears his under his wetsuit.

It doesn't suck up as much water as wool

That's the science.

ut there is always moisture you can't completely get rid of. Especially on the thicker weights and wind block fleece. I find damp wool keeps me much much warmer than damp fleece.

Aside from the apples to oranges issue (Thank you HoB.) of comparing "Wind Block" fleece to anything else, your experience is unique. That is, I have never heard or read any reports of polyester fleece having a problem getting dry under conditions where any material could get dry.

Also, I've just always had a preference for natural materials. A waxed cotton Filson hat or Tilley hat looks and feels much better to me than those cheap looking nylon Sombrero hats.

I got the "natural" slant. My B-in-L likes "organic"food, although I can find nothing on my plate that is not carbon-based. YMMV.

But, hey, anyone who wears a Seattle Rain Hat may be dangerous to look at crossways. Tell him you love his hat and snicker after you go around the corner of the building.

always like showing people this link. Wool and cotton can be just as light and warm as modern synthetics, and most find it less clammy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5076634.stm

Cotton can be just as warm -- if dry. It killed 10,000's of Chinese soldiers in Korea when their cotton-quilted uniforms got wet. It holds the inevitable moisture right next to your skin -- avoiding the clammy feeling - and evaporates, nicely lowering your body temp in January and well as it does in July. If, as in some places (like Ohio), humidity is lower in January than July, it lowers your body temperature even more effectively in January than in July. So, if it comes to it, I'm joining Brother HoB. Buy wool before cotton for cold weather.

TAL (Wool Advisory Board)

 

[jackknife]

elelbean-

That was facinating about the climber using replicas of Mallory's outfit. I remember reading when they found him that they were amazed at what he was wearing, and thought it too light. It made me think of the Shackelton expedition that survived a two year ordeal marooned on an ice pack, and having to row to Elephant island in open boats, soaked with seawater, yet Shackelton never lost a single man. They were all clothed in layers of wool with a gabberdine outer layer. Sound familiar?

I know I've had good luck in bad winter weather with a Woolrich shirt under my old Peter Storm fishermans sweater, under a waxed cotton duster and hat.

 

[Capt. Carl]

I love wool. Man-made materials will never replace the evolutionary process that created wool and allowed sheep to stay alive...IMO, it looks better as well and it the only thing that still provides warmth when wet and it effectively wicks away moisture.

 

[mwelch8404]

I've made the big circle.

Started with wool (and leather.)

After many of my friends kept touting Polartec and Goretex (did Algore invent this, just like the internet?) I moved to polertec and Goretx.

Now I'm back to natural fibers -wool and leather. I gave all my Goretex to my son (spends a lot of time outdoors camping and rafting) and most of my Polartec to him. Forthe record, I did keep Polarec and a lightweight hardshell for the BOB for size and weight.

BTW, the Filson Double Mac is GREAT.

Socks - several good brands in wool - if you pick a specific individual product from each company, like woolrich, head, rei, cabelas. But, hands down, ANYTHING by Smartwool.

BTW, Leather is great in the bush - no noise and nice protecton from twigs, thorns, etc. 'Course leather does NOT like water...

 

[Karl5]

I use both.
Started out in the synthetics camp, because of the wool in those days being itchy against the skin and very heavy.
Nowadays, progress has been made on the wool, producing fantastic stuff that's neither itchy nor heavy.
So these days, I'm leaning more towards using wool on those cold and wet days, and synthetics on those times when I need to move fast (sweat more).
And I often end up wearing both types of fabric.

/ Karl

 

[Ray_Gears]

i'm in the same camp as karl5. i use both. i like both. i often wear both at the same time. it all depends on the situation. whatever it takes is my motto.

that said, there are a few things i do not like about wool, mainly the weight and lack of windproofness (is that a word?) as others have all ready posted. cost is also a factor. a fellow can buy alot of fleece for the price of a woolrich, filson, or similar garment. even if the fleece doesn't last as long you may still save money in the long run.