No Pins?

R

Randydb

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Sep 27, 2014
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So, I have some 13 year olds who are making their own knife and sheath from a blade blank. They have found and hand sawn some local spalted and figured maple which they traded with me for "Dry figured maple." I am sending their scales off to be stabilized at K&G this week.

I am planning to have the kids hand shape their handles with carving knives and files. I want to keep this simple because it is their first try and they are young. But the are relatively capable carvers. They have carved wooden spoons, forks, and propeller toys.

So I am thinking of not using pins thus avoiding having to peen them. Don't have to carve around, worry about the different hardness between the brass and the wood where the wood files away faster than the brass etc.

Is it okay to just epoxy the scales on without pins? Should I be putting a short pin in that is hidden beneath the scale so there is more for the glue to hang on to? Or should I just put pins in and go with it?
Thanks for the input
Randy
 
Use pins. Whether you go with hidden pins or visible pins it will increase the bonding strength. You don't need to peen the pins if it is easier for the kids. Make sure the pin surface is roughed up though so the epoxy will have plenty of surface area with which to bond.
 
Yes, I understand the need for roughing it up. I didn't realize I didn't need to peen them...but if I actually think it makes sense. If they are hidden they aren't peened...duh!
 
Hidden pins will add a lot of strength and peace of mind :thumbup:

Thank you for teaching youngsters! :)
 
If you use hidden pins, allthread works well, as it already has a lot of texture or surface area for the epoxy to bond with. You could also drill the holes for the pins before glueup, glue the scales on and then have them shape them. Then when they're done, glue the pins in and just sand them flush.
 
Just a thought:
use wooden pins.
Here in Germany beech wood pins are easy and cheap to come by
 
Last edited:
Bart beat me too it.

Use wooden dowels for the pins. They will glue to the wooden handle well and provide plenty of strength for these type knives. If you want, send the doweling to K&G with the handle wood and have ken stabilize them ( and dye them if you wish). This will make them match the finish of the stabilized wood as well as be stronger. It would be simplest to send it in 12" pieces. I would suggest 3/16" maple dowel.
 
Hengelo_77 said:
Just a thought:
use wooden pins.
Here in Germany beech wood pins are easy and cheap to come by
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Bart beat me too it.

Use wooden dowels for the pins. They will glue to the wooden handle well and provide plenty of strength for these type knives. If you want, send the doweling to K&G with the handle wood and have ken stabilize them ( and dye them if you wish). This will make them match the finish of the stabilized wood as well as be stronger. It would be simplest to send it in 12" pieces. I would suggest 3/16" maple dowel.
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Ooooh, what a great idea! I have some plug cutters. I could get the kids on the drill press monday. They could chose matching or contrasting wood for their pins. I have some beautiful red toned walnut and black walnut for darker pins, and some holly and lotus wood that are very white. All really dense tight wood. They could go for that or use the same wood they chose for their scales.

The holes in their handles are all 1/4". Stacy, you mention 3/16. Should I be going a hair under, dead on or a bit over? I kind of figure if I am a hair over I can always stick it in a drill press and run some sandpaper on it to bring it down.

Thanks guys!
 
You can drill your holes with a letter F bit. It's .256" I believe. Then use a 1/4" dowel and they will fit nice. Post some pics of the progress if you can. I wish I had a teacher like you when I was in school. I don't know what I can do to help but let me know if there is anything. Good luck!
 
I just checked my plug cutters. Smallest one is 3/8, but I can buy a 1/4" cutter at Home Depot (bout 1/2 hr) from my place. Noticed in the review section for the plug cutter someone gave the 1/4" cutter a bad review because his plugs kept falling apart. I bet he was cutting cross grain instead of end grain.

I was having issues with my plugs breaking off before I got the length I wanted in soft pine. Dad started saying all sorts of things that had the word "end" in it. "I guess there is no end to that." Wonder what it will look like on the end." All sorts of dumb stuff and I was getting more and more bugged. It took me about 5 minutes to catch on. Guess the guy on Home Depot never did!
 
Matt R said:
You can drill your holes with a letter F bit. It's .256" I believe. Then use a 1/4" dowel and they will fit nice. Post some pics of the progress if you can. I wish I had a teacher like you when I was in school. I don't know what I can do to help but let me know if there is anything. Good luck!
Click to expand...

Never heard of a letter F bit...but I am sure I can find one now. Suggestions like that help a lot though! Derrick from Triplex Knives and Shane Alexander from SA Knives have been instrumental in setting me up with the expertise, support and supplies we need. I owe them. Shane is planning to come and help with sheath making in November too.

I think I have one of the most amazing jobs in the world. I teach at a public school but it is an Environmental School where we do everything outside, hands on, every day of the school year. Rain, shine, snow and so on. We get to meet anywhere we want within the Maple Ridge Pitt Meadows area. So we are in a couple different forests, on the Alouette River, at the BMX park, down on the dikes, and everywhere in between. I feel like I am the luckiest person on earth! Every day is a blast. We drag 40 dead salmon out of the river a number of times and the kids all get in groups of 2 or 3 and get to dissect them. Waaaaaayyyyyyy better than read the chapter, watch the video, study the diagram, do the questions in the back and write a test. My kids know all about the salmon including what they smell and taste like!

I want to post some pictures and a bit about what we are doing. But I am not sure where I should be posting a thread like that. Stacy...where should a thread like that go?

First three pictures are of the kids doing salmon dissection. Last two are of the 7s opening their blanks and getting ready to do a bit of horse trading with me for dry wood for their handles. They had to find and cut nice figured spalted wood to trade me. They got some really nice stuff.

Thanks
RandyIMG_2316.jpgIMG_2304.jpgIMG_2299.jpgIMG_3620.jpgIMG_3613.jpg
 
The plug cutter won't make a pin long enough for a complete pin in the handle, but you could use a short pin for handle, then use the plug cutter pins as plugs to allow the pins to match existing wood scales.

Ken H>
 
I have some 1/4 walnut dowel I would be more than happy to send to you if you were interested.
 
Plugs won't work for what you are thing to do. Either turn your own dowels (grain lengthwise) or pick one up online or locally and have it stabilized with the scales as Stacy suggested. Woodcraft and Rockler handle hardwood dowels or you can take Viral up on his offer and have a contrasting look with the maple. Best of luck!
 
I can cut two inch long plugs. Unless I am missing something they should be long enough. They aren't tapered. I would just get them to cut length wise with the drill press. Here are some 3/8" jatoba plugs I just cut a few minutes ago. I just have to pick up a 1/4" cutter.

Viral, I deeply appreciate your offer of walnut dowel. I may take you up on it, but if I can get them to make their own I want to go there first. The more they do themselves the more they will connect with and become a part of their knife. The deeper their appreciation of what they have made and the more meaning it has for them. The more competent they become too. That is why they had to find their own figured or spalted wood in the forest and cut blocks for scales from it. If they didn't come up with beautiful striking wood I wasn't going to trade them for my dry pieces of gold! I got our grade sixes to do the same thing and we have set their wood aside in our warehouse to dry for them to use next September.

I would really like to get them in a shop and have them cut their own blade with a grinder, shape and form it, and then send it to be HT somewhere, but I didn't have access to that stuff and I haven't done that part myself yeat. BUT...I just found out one of our parents runs a large machine shop and fabricates all sorts of stuff with metal! Maybe next year we go there!

It would be easier to just buy dowel or take Viral up on the offer, but if they can make them it will be one more learning experience for them to use in the future. I may hit board members up for something in the future. But so far I think I am okay. Ignorance is bliss I suppose!!

Randy
here's a pic of the plugs with my goofy daughter in the background.Photo on 2015-09-27 at 1.11 PM.jpg
 
I played around with this method this weekend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNp6Gen-PVU

I'm getting really nice dowel that is right on 1/4" and I can take a hair off with sandpaper if I needed. I am going to get the kids to make their own dowel. So much easier than I expected.

Custom pins!
Thanks guys.
Randy
 
Make that in some nice O1 and ht it then finish it and that could be a real time saver for my wood shop. Thanks for the share.
 
Robert L Sr said:
Make that in some nice O1 and ht it then finish it and that could be a real time saver for my wood shop. Thanks for the share.
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I just used a piece of 1/8" flat iron I found in the yard to test it out. Drilled 4 holes from 3/8" down to 1/4" and used my dremel to put the grooves in. Cut some jatoba down to 3/8" square sticks and ran it through my jig starting with the 3/8" hole. I was surprised at the quality of dowel I got. One piece didn't run straight, but the rest was great. Only took a few minutes.
I couldn't believe how simple this jig was.
You could have a really fancy jig if you wanted using hardened steel like you guys make. I don't know how long my jig will stay "sharp" but you probably don't even need to harden it.
I'm impressed with this jig.

Randy
 
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