no Sub zero AEB-L?

A year or so back I did the same cutting test with one knife at 60Rc (no sub zero) and the other at 62Rc (with sub zero).

Do I understand from your video you saw NO difference between cyro (-321ºF, or was this using Dry Ice?) and no cyro (direct to temper after quench)? A bit of talking explaining that the number of cuts was the same - or not the same.

Thank you for all your work making the video, that takes a LOT of time to actually video and post results of a test.

Ken H>
 
Your welcome. I put the knife in the freezer for one to two hours after heat treat and then tempered it. I didn't count the rope cuts, but I would say they were probably within 10-20 of each other. I did notice a difference, but it is not incredibly huge. I would say that it's more in the way it feels when cutting.
 
Some of you are confusing "cryo" and "sub- zero" Cryo is about -300 F and sub-zero about -100 F. Both reduce RA but cryo ,with suitable alloys also produces eta carbides .
Please treat each steel with it's own properties ! Some don't really improve with cryo. Reducing RA to zero isn't always the best thing also. The sub-zero treatment s will reduce RA to reasonable levels with normally high RA types .The suggested HT of AEB-L is the best for the performance !!!
 
Dryo????? Hmmm - I like it {g} I can see why many folks get confused with the terms. Perhaps if we always put temp in brackets when talking about cryo, deep freeze, etc would help keep folks better understand the terms.

Ken H>
 
Hi Ken. Sorry that I only answered part of your question. I do not use cryo, only sub zero quench. Or in the case of that test blade, just the freezer. So far I have only worked with AEB-L and S35VN. Sub zero is all you need for AEB-L (and for S35VN according to Crucible's data and the metallurgist that I talked to there). I also like the Dryo term.
 
When you say "sub zero" - what temperature are you using? -95º as in dry ice? OR, perhaps around -5ºF as in a home freezer?

I find it interesting that Sandvik gives a -5ºF treatment option for other steels (12C27, 14C28N, etc) but does NOT give the -5ºF option for 13C26 which is "said" to be the same as AEB-L. I wonder why?

I've never used LN (-321ºF), but since I've started using AEB-L I've been using Dry Ice (-95ºF). When Hoss tells me that's the way to do it, that's settled any questions as far as I'm concerned.

Will AEB-L make a decent knife without a dry ice treatment? Sure it will, but not "quite" as good as doing it right.

Ken H>
 
Sub zero is dry ice and a liquid media. I use dry ice and denatured alcohol. Supposedly it is about -112F. I agree with using sub zero as any customer deserves the best that a knife maker can give them when they sell them a knife.
 
Denatured alcohol is what I use also, but only get around -95ºF with a good slurry (measured with TC). Check this link: https://goo.gl/N14R1i

It shows the "theoretical" temperature that can be achieved with different slurries. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol is only -72ºC (-97.6ºF), but Isopropyl alcohol is -77ºC (-106.6ºF). This would require at least a 99% isopropyl I'm sure. I tried rubbing alcohol but it had too much water and froze when mixed with dry ice. I found the 99% isopropyl for around $25 or so per gallon shipped. Here's the best price: http://www.ebay.com/itm/121931988848? with 2 gallon for $34 shipped. I'd like to have a gallon of that.
 
I will make a few comments based on my I understanding and personal observations.

Cryo is a treatment in cryogenic liquids. Liquid Nitrogen, at -321°F, is the most common for knifemakers to use. It will reduce RA by making it convert to martensite, as well as convert some carbides into eta carbides.
Steels with hypereutectoid carbon and sufficient alloying are suitable for cryo. The changes in cryo are time dependent, and require several hours at the -300°F temperature to occur. Six hours to overnight is the normal cryo treatment.

Sub-zero treatment is submersion in a liquid that is chilled to -95°F or slightly lower. This is normally a bath of crushed dry ice and denatured alcohol. Some use dry ice and acetone, but the volatility of acetone is much greater than alcohol, thus making alcohol safer and cheaper.
Sub-zero brings the RA down to the Mf and converts it to martensite. It does not affect the carbides. The steels that do best with this treatment are ones with carbon content closer to the eutectoid. AEB-L is a good example of this type steel. More complex steels that would normally benefit from cryo will still reach full hardening and minimal RA with a sub-zero treatment.
If liquid nitrogen is not available, all stainless and high alloy steels should at least have a sub-zero treatment in a dry ice slurry. When the Mf is reached, the conversion is done. This happens as soon as the steel is at -95°F. Longer soaks will gain nothing.

Freezer/Freezing treatment is placing a quenched steel object in a freezer at or slightly below 0°F. This is usually referred to as a cold treatment. It is best if the freezer is -10°F. This treatment is a gray area that gets hyped by some and poo-pooed by others. The Mf on simple knife steels is at or above room temperature. Nothing more happens by cooling the blade to below the Mf. As more alloying and carbon are added to steel, the structures get to where the Mf starts to drop. In stainless steels, the Mf is around -100°F. In a few alloyed carbon steels, it can drop to between room temperature and 0°F. Steels like 52100 and some other alloy bearing carbon steels will benefit slightly from assuring that the Mf has been reached. Placing in a freezer for an hour or two to bring the blade down to Mf is OK, but longer times ( often given as "overnight") will do nothing more. The difference between a blade quenched down to room temperature and one done to -10°F is probably nearly indistinguishable. Looking at the industrial charts shows that only a few knife steels have an Mf between 0 and 70°F, so doing a freezer treatment is of little use for most bladesmiths. Looking through the ASM guides shows that none of the standard alloyed steels ( A2, D2, L6, O1, etc.) call for anything but a room temperature quench. In short, it won't hurt, but don't expect any significant gain.

Of more importance is the timing of events in HT. Quench should be immediately followed by the next treatment, be it cryo, sub-zero, freezer, or tempering. More accurately, the treatment is the lower end of the quench, and the drop should be as continuous as possible. Delays in the drop, and in the tempering stabilize RA and make the next steps less effective. The first temper should immediately follow the quench and treatments. You may loose more in a delay in tempering than you will gain from any cooling treatment.



Observation in objective tests (cutting things and other use tests) is not very accurate for small differences. The objectivity is usually skewed by the mere knowledge of the treatment being tested. A test of this principle was done by a university in the 1960's where two identical cups of distilled water were offered to people to taste test. One was called plain water and the other was called "improved taste" water. Nearly every taster said the improved water was much better. In a truly blind test, you would not know which is which, and the results would be more accurate. Add to that, that performance tests are hard to keep identical, and there is even more room for error in observation.

I will compare this whole discussion to the current super moon. The word super implies a huge gain. The full moon is at perigee (at its closest), and thus appears slightly brighter and larger looking on a clear night. The actual difference is about 4% in brightness and 2% in size from last months full moon ( the 14% size and 30% brightness often posted are not an apples to oranges comparison. They are the difference between apogee and perigee, which happen about 7 months apart.). The difference between the moon at rising and when directly overhear on any night is almost the same difference as the super moon is from month to month ( the moon is about 3000 miles closer at meridian than at moon-rise/set).

The difference in the moon's appearance is much more than the gain on a knife blade from a cold treatment, which is often less than one percent. Without being told, the average viewer would never see the difference in the moon tonight as compared to December, and the average knife user would not be able to tell the difference between a 52100 knife quenched to room temp vs one done to -100F. But, if you asked them if the super-moon looked bigger, they would almost always say, "Yes, it looks much bigger". The same for the knife. Ask if the cold treatment knife seems sharper or longer cutting, and the tester will almost always say, "Yes, it is many time better".
 
Waitwaitwait....so there's no gain for 52100 in doing a dry ice quench?

Aldo pretty much laughed at me when I asked him, and said that "we all know it's much better if you do."
I know there's a lot of mythology around this particular alloy, and I hesitate to even ask- there's nothing in the diagram that suggests that it needs to go that low- but I've been told to do so by so many people I respect.

Apologies for wandering from the OP.
 
Interesting discussion. I'm curious to know what the actual numbers are for this type of cryo quench vs. room temperature (no cryo, dryo, freezer). I've seen where people claim that D2, with it's RA from room temperature, is a very good candidate due to the the large amount of RA when there is no cold treatment. Some steels with less carbon are said to have no benefit from cold.

Is there a chart for actual % of quench vs. unquenched RA in different steels, or is this just more knife B.S?
 
I will compare this whole discussion to the current super moon. The word super implies a huge gain. The full moon is at perigee (at its closest), and thus appears slightly brighter and larger looking on a clear night. The actual difference is about 4% in brightness and 2% in size from last months full moon ( the 14% size and 30% brightness often posted are not an apples to oranges comparison. They are the difference between apogee and perigee, which happen about 7 months apart.). The difference between the moon at rising and when directly overhear on any night is almost the same difference as the super moon is from month to month ( the moon is about 3000 miles closer at meridian than at moon-rise/set).

The difference in the moon's appearance is much more than the gain on a knife blade from a cold treatment, which is often less than one percent. Without being told, the average viewer would never see the difference in the moon tonight as compared to December, and the average knife user would not be able to tell the difference between a 52100 knife quenched to room temp vs one done to -100F. But, if you asked them if the super-moon looked bigger, they would almost always say, "Yes, it looks much bigger". The same for the knife. Ask if the cold treatment knife seems sharper or longer cutting, and the tester will almost always say, "Yes, it is many time better".

Everybody knows that the supermoons mark the best time of the century to quench blades, don't forget to align the forge and quench media to the earth north/south pole axis...
We are so privileged to be alive knifemakers during a supermoon...


Pablo
 
Stacy, I much appreciated that explanation. That is how I understand things as well.

Noseoil, there are charts, I believe I've seen a few scattered here and there, showing RA in certain steels. However, RA is not just alloy dependent, but austenitizing temperature dependent. For example, 52100 hardened at 1475F is going to have less retained austenite than 52100 hardened at 1600F. 52100 is a good example of this, because most, if not all, charts will show the "industry standard" HT for a given steel. Being 52100 is a "bearing steel", most every chart/graph/data you'll see concerning RA in 52100 will be from an "industry standard" heat treat for a ball bearing.

Something I posted elsewhere:

Reading from "Heat Treating, Including Steel Heat Treating in the New Millennium, An International Symposium in Honor of Professor George Krauss" (ASM Heat Treating Society) 2000.

Samples of D2 and A2 were OIL QUENCHED.

A2 and D2 oil quenched from 1775°F and 1850°F (respectively), both had RA 16-18%, 64-65HRC.
A single 400°F temper had no change on RA, but reduced hardness to ~60HRC.
A single 1000°F temper reduced RA to levels below X-Ray diffraction detection (<2%), lowering hardness to 56-57HRC.

A2 and D2 oil quenched from 1775°F and 1850°F (respectively)
A -100°F cold treatment was applied to both as-quenched samples, reducing A2 RA to 9%, D2 RA to <2%, raising hardness to 65-66HRC.
(interesting to me the RA in A2 did not drop as much as the RA in D2)
A single 400°F temper drop RA in A2 to 4%, hardness 61-62HRC.

A2 and D2 oil quenched from 1775°F and 1850°F (respectively)
Both samples immersed in LN for 3 hours, result for both was RA <2%, D2 had 66.5HRC.

The way I think of RA is like little bitty marshmellos in the cement matrix analogy. If a knife blade has ~10% RA (marshmellos) scattered in it's "cement" matrix, in the macro, this may not be such a bad thing. However, at the micro level, particularly the apex of a sharpened knife that is only a few microns wide, or ONE micron if you will, then those little bitty marshmellos aren't doing anything good at all for edge retention.

I do the "cold treatment" on my carbon/tool steels hardened from 1475F. I don't claim any performance gain whatsoever, and the science basically says it is probably a waste of time. But the freezer is there, it's on, so.....I do it.
 
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Thanks Stuart. I have seen those stats, and find them interesting. As the tests show, a home freezer would make no change.

My comment that little or no gain comes from sub-zero or cryo on many knife steels is that the final blade will perform nearly identical if all else is the same.

The main point I am making is that if you look at the final results of the tests shown, the difference in the final hardness and toughness is actually very minute. If going for a Rc60 blade, the Ra will be not a serious issue if a good austenitization and quench happened. It will likely be well below 10%, and probably below 5% with a lower austenitization point. For laboratory equipment and aerospace use, this matters. For knives ... it really doesn't.

For steels that get a HT in the 1400-1500°F range ( like 52100), there seems to be little or no gain from sub-zero or cryo as far as I know. The austenite pretty much fully converts on the quench, and the remainder is converted on two tempers.
 
...
A single 1000°F temper reduced RA to levels below X-Ray diffraction detection (<2%), lowering hardness to 56-57HRC.
...

We call it secondary hardness. I do it for almost all of My knives. I don't hunt for highest hardness so 56-60 Rc is good for Me. I temper at about 530°C (986F) at least 2x 2 hours. As You can see on the chart no cryo or sub-zero is needed for good made blade.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7...aOTtrlpaUQL7X2JQc9BwDIC2DuYod5YA=w502-h479-no
 
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