non-stainless steels

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Muaddib1116

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Dec 26, 2010
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So... I'm not actually in the market for a large fixed blade survival type knife, but some recent reading on this forum has had me looking at some, if only to familiarize myself with them. ESEE's seem to be wildly popular here, and I looked at their website, and I definitely see the appeal as far as the physical stats and blade shapes. What's getting to me is the 1095 blade steel, and their warning that it needs to be maintained with various coatings to prevent rust. To me, a survival knife that I'm going to be using extensively for consecutive days in the "wild" shouldn't have to be maintained with oils and waxes. For me, a stainless steel seems mandatory.

I'm hoping that some of you will chime in with your experiences, practices, thoughts on the subject.
 
Our ancestors did pretty well the last couple of thousand years with non-stainless steels. As a rule, high carbon steel is tougher, easier to sharpen than high alloy stainless steels. Rust is rarely a factor with a knife used daily, in my experience.
 
I wonder how our military ever made it through all our wars with their carbon steel knives and carbon steel rifles. You would think all their weapons would be rusting to pieces on them.

As long as you keep your carbon steel knife DRY, you don't even need to oil it. Just wipe it dry after each use and let it patina and don't worry about it. Don't store it in a wet or moist leather sheath, store it out of the leather sheath. If in a plastic sheath then just leave it in the sheath.
 
Muaddib1116 said:
So... I'm not actually in the market for a large fixed blade survival type knife, but some recent reading on this forum has had me looking at some, if only to familiarize myself with them. ESEE's seem to be wildly popular here, and I looked at their website, and I definitely see the appeal as far as the physical stats and blade shapes. What's getting to me is the 1095 blade steel, and their warning that it needs to be maintained with various coatings to prevent rust. To me, a survival knife that I'm going to be using extensively for consecutive days in the "wild" shouldn't have to be maintained with oils and waxes. For me, a stainless steel seems mandatory.

I'm hoping that some of you will chime in with your experiences, practices, thoughts on the subject.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, using a knife day-in and day-out is exactly what you want with non-stainless alloys. Most folks find that just cleaning and wiping down the blade after use is good enough if the blade is used all the time. You might get some surface corrosion, which some fellas call "patina", but if you just clean it and dry it you should not get any pitting. Oiling it up is highly recommended prior to storage for any length of time.

The advantage to non-stainless is that, as a rule of thumb, it is tougher than a stainless alloy that has the same level of edge retention. Non-stainless is, as a rule of thumb, easier to sharpen in the field with minimal equipment than is stainless.
 
i have mostly used carbon field knives all my life. [72] this week. i really have nothing against bright knives except that in the field they look funny when one is engaged in an activity as old as mankind. my city knives are stainless since they do'nt generally touch food but are used in conjunction with carpet cleaning activities.in the field you can use saliva & your shirttail to clean carbon blades if alternatives are'nt possible. it's been my observation that it's mostly the younger guys whom prefer s.s.we ole timers grew up with carbon so we know how to care for it. really after a lifetime of faithful performance why would one chose to change from a good buddy.
dennis
 
I have a couple of carbon steel kitchen knives. It doesn't take much effort to wash and dry after use. It's just a matter of getting used to another routine.

The patina on these knives is constantly changing depending what foods are being prepped that day. Cleaning and maintaining them is just another excuse to play with them.

Just finished modding an Ontario Field knife that will be used in the kitchen. The blade got thinned and a slight belly added. Re did the handle with some bird's eye maple. We'll see how the patina develops. So far it slices great. My son calls it the machete knife.

ric
 
Our ancestors did pretty well with copper and stone tools and weapons before steel came along, but they upgraded as soon as they got the opportunity.

Sarcastic and smart *** answers aside, I can see the logic behind choosing stainless steel for an outdoor/survival type knife. Many people carry the stainless Mora knives. Busse's INFI steel is known for it's relatively high corrosion resistance, though it's from a different mechanism than most stainless.

ESEE uses 1095 because it's cheap and makes an affordable knife of good quality. Stainless steel is expensive, especially the cutlery grades.

Corrosion is overstated in many cases. It takes years of pretty much total neglect to ruin a carbon steel blade. I've left knives outside for a year and when I found them again, all that was needed was some oil, a polish of the blades, and a quick sharpening. A carbon steel knife will not rust away while carried, and keeping it dry will prevent any orange rust from forming. The darkening that is called a patina is almost inevitable on a carbon steel knife. Sometimes, keeping it dry is not possible
 
I wouldn't take a Carbon steel knife as a gift (unless it had some collector value and I didn't have to carry it). Life is too short to be babying a knife along. I like stainless guns too. PS The rain is getting more acidic all the time.
 
I generally prefer stainless steels, but there are some instances when a non-stainless may be more suitable.
The other night, I needed to slit lobster tail shells. I selected an old Case XX carbon steel butcher knife for this. It is 1095. The knife went through the shells without any rolling or nicking of the blade. If I had done this with a knife in 440 or VG10, I'd expect at least some rolling of the blade edge.
I prefer stainless for pocket knives and fishing knives. However, I used a chef's knife for many years that isn't stainless. It holds an edge and has merely turned grey. I just clean and dry the blade after use.
 
Hi Muad,

There are some really wise words that have been expressed to your question.

we've learned that in general, knife customers, especially newer interest or younger customers, as mentioned, like stainless steels and treat rust like a disease.

We've taken heat for ZDP corrosion, and it's stainless. Steels like M4 and Super Blue must be cared for more, which many do not mind, but some do.

The main argument against non stainless blades is not the patina or thin layer of rust, it's the simple fact that the edge is the first and fastest to rust because it is exposed on both sides.

Coatings don't help much as the edge is not coated. As mentioned, using and sharpening prevents this problem, and care must be taken in storage.

Our Bushcraft model was made with O1 because the guys going out into the bush for a month at a time with a knife and a firestater, prefer the simpler steels over the highfallutin alloys.

For knife afi's, all steel is good steel and function helps determine the preferences for different apliations.

sal
 
When I was new into knife collecting/using, one of my main issues (in my mind) was rust. I absolutely feared it like it could spread, from the knives to my skin :eek:
I would only buy knives made of very rust resistant steels and such. I'd even avoid steels such as AUS8A, ATS-34 and 154CM too. All because I thought they are not stainless enough!
Eventually I bought many H-1 knives, to rid of my rust issues for life!
Though again, with experience come the lessons. I read a lot, experimented with steels, and continued the never ending research regarding high quality steels.
Eventually, I ventured to the non stainless world of steels. Blades made of 1095, D2, CPM M4 and other good old carbon / tool steels joined my collection.
So I kept experimenting, using and researching about steels and such...
Making a long story short, I now carry a CPM M4 folder, and 1095 fixed blade for my EDC. When I go outdoors, I mostly have 1095 of some sort (cro van sometimes, sometimes Rowens stuff), or the good old 0170-6C, even 1085 in some rare/specific cases.

I realized the less I feared rust, the less my knives rusted. I wiped my wet/bloody blades and they don't form red rust. Patina looks awesome! and is very acceptable on a non stainless blade.
Just go ahead, try a non stainless out. If you're a true knife user, you'll be fine. You might even enjoy it, and eventually, like me, rid of most of your stainless knives altogether. :D
 
Thanks for all of the replies. They've given me a lot to consider. I'm not really afraid of patina, since I've had a carbon-steel kitchen knife for a while, and I don't mind the discoloration. My concern was more because I would imagine that I might not always have time to wipe the blade down before resheathing it, and real rust would build. But as many of you said, that is easy enough to clean off.

While, the responses here have made me reconsider how much I might mind a patina'd survival fixed blade, I still think that I'll stick with stainless steels for EDC for now.

Again, thanks for the food for thought.
 
tiguy7 said:
I wouldn't take a Carbon steel knife as a gift (unless it had some collector value and I didn't have to carry it). Life is too short to be babying a knife along. I like stainless guns too. PS The rain is getting more acidic all the time.
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Interestingly, however, the service life and other performance characteristics of stainless remain inferior to the best carbon steels used in firearms. There is no free lunch, unfortunately. :(
 
tiguy7 said:
I wouldn't take a Carbon steel knife as a gift (unless it had some collector value and I didn't have to carry it). Life is too short to be babying a knife along. I like stainless guns too. PS The rain is getting more acidic all the time.
Click to expand...

I have a few blades in tool steel. I carry and use, everyday since I got it, a cpm m4 military. I assure you that it doesn't get nor does it need to be babied. I just don't let it stay wet for periods of time (hours) and hit it with some wd-40 , mineral oil, 3 in 1 oil, or whatever is lying around at work when I happen to remember and haven't had a problem with rust yet. The edge taking and edge retention characteristics of a tool steel are well worth the tiny extra bit of vigilance in keeping the blade dry and treating it with a bit of oil occasionally.

You're missing out on some fine blades made of fine steels.
 
Steel choice really depends on what you want the knife to be able to do. For a large blade - a tool steel might be best, because it can be made tougher. If too hard, it will be brittle. Some carbon steels are tougher than others, like 5160, but may not hold an edge quite as well as a steel with a higher carbon content - say 1095. Other steels will hold an edge better, but the edge may be more brittle.
Stainless steel blades are great, but I would not want to treat them like an axe. I wouldn't buy an axe made of stainless steel.
 
I have come full circle. I am back to picking freely from carbon and stainless blades. I will admit to having less of a variety of Carbon as most of what I have is 1095 (ESEE Rocks!). On the stainless side I have, and like, 12c27 Sandvik, VG-10, CPM-S30V, AUS-8, 440C I think (it's an old Buck 110, circa about 1979, and either 420HC or 154CM on my Leatherman Surge...I think.

I am very fond of Sandvik and VG-10.
 
Quite simple really. If you use carbon steel you'll spend a little extra time keeping it dry and oiling it. If you use stainless steel you'll spend a little extra time keeping it sharp. I personally don't think it's a life-and-death difference. If our ancestors did fine with stone knives, we should be well served with steel ones, even if they're "mere" stainless.
 
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