non-stainless steels

tiguy7 said:
I wouldn't take a Carbon steel knife as a gift (unless it had some collector value and I didn't have to carry it). Life is too short to be babying a knife along. I like stainless guns too. PS The rain is getting more acidic all the time.
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Lol whatever. I use the farg out of my carbon blades and have yet to baby one or lose one to rust. I used to think the same way about stainless though until I started hanging out here and got edumacated.

You ought to mess with a good and inexpensive one - a Becker Necker or ESEE Izula or something - and see if your opinion changes at all. If not, you can always sell it.

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Beckerhead #42
 
I think we're all getting ahead of ourselves really and not asking the real question...

If you're in a survival situation, how much does rust really matter?

On top of that, how long does it take significant rust to form, and lastly, how easy is it to break trivial rust off?

If you're out in the woods and you don't dry an ESEE, and you put it back in the sheath for the day, you'll come back and it will have some pretty good rust on it. Does it still cut? Is the entire edge rusted so badly it's unusable? Is it even rust stubborn enough to stay on after cutting some wood up?

Rust just really isn't that big of a deal if you're talking about a survival situation. I guess I can see how it would bother some folks in other contexts, but again it's easy to take care of. Stainless might be a lot more convenient since you can just put it in a box and leave it, but I wouldn't really call carbon high maintenance.
 
While cutting, slicing, chopping, batoning and generally using the knife you want it to perform well without having to stop and sharpen it. With a carbon steel knife you just use it and use it and use it, then you wipe it down and holster it. In the evening you can sharpen and oil it. With a stainless steel blade you use it, sharpen it, use it, sharpen it and use it, in the evening you can sharpen it again and have it ready for the next day.

I have been a bit slack about cleaning my blades, but still no rust - I like my ESEE & Becker knifes and I'm happy with the 1095 & 1095 Crovan steel. I also prefer the carbon Mora knives, though the stainless ones are all right and make good food prep knives. I like my carbon Opinel knives too (even though their sharpness scares me a little) because they are wicked slicers.

I like the stainless on my Victorinox SAKs because they are not hard use knives and I don't need to cut all that much between sharpenings.

Muaddib1116 said:
So... I'm not actually in the market for a large fixed blade survival type knife, but some recent reading on this forum has had me looking at some, if only to familiarize myself with them. ESEE's seem to be wildly popular here, and I looked at their website, and I definitely see the appeal as far as the physical stats and blade shapes. What's getting to me is the 1095 blade steel, and their warning that it needs to be maintained with various coatings to prevent rust. To me, a survival knife that I'm going to be using extensively for consecutive days in the "wild" shouldn't have to be maintained with oils and waxes. For me, a stainless steel seems mandatory.

I'm hoping that some of you will chime in with your experiences, practices, thoughts on the subject.
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My thoughts are that using a knife extensively for consecutive days the 1095 with Rowan's heat treat would be a great choice and stainless would be a deal breaker - I wouldn't buy that type of knife for that kind of use if it was made from stainless steel. The large knives I do own are made from 1075, 1085, 1095 & 1095 CroVan plus one in 5160. The 5160 steel is the only one I've seen red rust on (it cleaned off fine) and the only one I ensure to oil regularly. The 10xx steels don't seem to rust all that readily and only need a minimal amount of care to keep in good condition. It would take more than a few days of consecutive use to harm my Becker or ESEE knives.

Maybe if we were talking about months on a deserted island with a lot of sea spray and a basketball called Wilson for company then the carbon steel knives might not be as good as stainless - but a few days in the bush isn't going to be a problem.
 
I recall one discussion I have overheard while standing in the line in the canteen. That was in my first job - more than 20 years ago. Then two ladies discussed their preferences - bath or shower. One preferred baths - so relaxing. Another showers. He argument was that after the bath you have to wash it - which is a bother. Then the bath lover nearly exclaimed: "but why - do you really have to..." And that was sort of the end of the dispute - they both felt a bit uncomfortable i guess...
I remember that I have found that funny - one is lazy, so she takes only showers, another takes baths - in a filthy bath...

Why to worry so much about maintaining carbon steel blade! It is so easy and so natural! So are you too lazy for a carbon steel, or are not used to taking care of your knife? ;)
 
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I'd ask this question in the Wilderness and Survival subforum.

Although I know little about "survival" I think it's pretty clear that people "made it out alive" for centuries using carbon steel knives. Conversely, you could ask, how many people failed to survive in the wild because their knife got rust on it? I'd be interested to know if there are any reported cases of that.

Lastly, although there's always great interest about what survival knife to get in a knife forum, I'd think the more important question is whether you have the right skills rather than stainless v. carbon.
 
I prefer stainless in my folding blades because it's easy for gunk/blood/guts to get trapped inside, and that's something I don't want that knife sitting in. It also helps for fishing, where I like to toss a folder into my pocket or PFD. Also, with most of the exotic, modern stainless steels, they stay sharp for a long, long time. Some are hard to sharpen, but I've never had a problem in the field with an edge quitting on me.

I prefer carbon steels in fixed blade knives as they are usually larger and subject to lateral and chopping abuse. Carbon steel is very tough, and a breeze to sharpen which is a big plus for a chopper. You will get a little rust on your edge if you put it away wet. Easy to remove. As said before, the important thing is to use your knife. Carbon steels don't need to be babied, just used.

Both types of steel are great, just buy from a reputable manufacturer and think about the uses you want the blade for. Either one can work very well for you.
 
As long as you are competent and creative about being able to sharpen the edge, it (rust) does not matter at all in a survival situation.

KennyB said:
I think we're all getting ahead of ourselves really and not asking the real question...

If you're in a survival situation, how much does rust really matter?

On top of that, how long does it take significant rust to form, and lastly, how easy is it to break trivial rust off?

If you're out in the woods and you don't dry an ESEE, and you put it back in the sheath for the day, you'll come back and it will have some pretty good rust on it. Does it still cut? Is the entire edge rusted so badly it's unusable? Is it even rust stubborn enough to stay on after cutting some wood up?

Rust just really isn't that big of a deal if you're talking about a survival situation. I guess I can see how it would bother some folks in other contexts, but again it's easy to take care of. Stainless might be a lot more convenient since you can just put it in a box and leave it, but I wouldn't really call carbon high maintenance.
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Once you have sharpened a steel like 1095, you will loathe stainless. It is super easy to put a hair popping edge on carbon steel in a couple of minuets, and after use it will easily strop back to its original sharpness.
 
I've never seen rust on a carbon steel blade unless the knife was severely abused; essentially left outside for a long period of time. I use "Old Hickory" kitchen knives, and have yet to see a spot of rust.
 
FlyingKiwi said:
Once you have sharpened a steel like 1095, you will loathe stainless. It is super easy to put a hair popping edge on carbon steel in a couple of minuets, and after use it will easily strop back to its original sharpness.
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Truer words have never been spoken! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

The only stainless steels that I really like are the Sandvik ones... 12c27, 13c36, 14c28n. I haven't tried any of the 19c27.
 
For a Non stainless blade I would take CPM 10V in a heartbeat over anything else without even thinking about it and I know I wouldn't have to worry about sharpening it in the field. :D
 
I played with my ESEE Lite Machete (1075) chopping some wood and other vegetation, I never bothered cleaning it when in the bush and I was feeling a bit tired when I got home. After about 30 hours I thought I better take a look at it - there seemed to be some patina on the bevel. I stropped the bevel to make it nice and sharp again and but the machete away. I supposed I could have oiled it - but it is clean and dry so I think it'll be OK.

I would say that I don't bother putting any more effort into maintaining my carbon steel knives than my stainless ones - I think the warnings about caring for carbon steel are overstated because of the occasional fool that will leave a knife wet for days and then bitch about it rusting. In my experience it doesn't take much effort to keep carbon steel from rusting - keep it clean and dry and it wont generally be an issue.
 
I've never had any rust issues with my carbon steel. I'll wipe them off after using, before storage. I just make sure they are clean and dry when I put them up. Every once in while (2 or 3 times a year, maybe), I'll give them a wipe with a shop rag that's been very lightly oiled that I use to wipe down my guns.
 
I am lazy. I only take showers. If I had an extra pocket, I would be disinclined to stuff an oily rag in it. I had Carbon knives when I was a kid. They were all high maintenance. They even rusted in the sheath in the drawer. I do a lot of food preparation. It is illegal in my state to use Carbon knives in commercial kitchens. I have no trouble sharpening stainless knives. Generally speaking, the longer they take to sharpen, the longer the edge lasts (no free lunch). I worked in the metal finishing industry and tried to keep more active metals from corroding by covering them with less active metals (Nickel) or sacrificial metals (Zinc). I developed a great fondness for substrates which didn't need the protrection of a coating or the necessity for frequent polishing. Give me stainless steel, Gold, Titanium, Platinum, etc. any day.
 
I guess that the rumor about stainless being harder to sharpen that carbon is from before my time. I've never had any trouble sharpening a quality knife that was stainless. I've never had any trouble sharpening a quality knife. My Benchmades have all been stainless and have taken excellent edges with little effort. The knife I do not like sharpening to a very fine edge is my Old Hickory butcher knife. It hangs on to a burr like a lifeline. I won't say VG-10, 154CM, S30V, ATS-34, etc won't give you sharpening difficulties, but it doesn't have anything to do with them being stainless.
 
A really well used non-stainless knife gets a patina on it that looks awesome! I find too that once the patina is there and you keep a little veg oil (for knives that cut food) or a good gun oil film on the blade it doesnt develop active rust.
 
There are stainless steels that would be decent alternatives to 1095. 1095 isn't so tough that it compares well with something like 5160 or L6, if that's what you want, and it has low wear resistance. Stainless Moras are popular because they also work well, so don't fret the decision one way or the other.
 
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