Noobie Heat Treating Question

E

evolbeaver

Joined
Dec 22, 2008
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Hello, I am doing the research about heat treating so I can understand as much as possible before I begin my attempt at making my first knife. I would like to use a stainless steel for the blade but have limited tools to use for heat treating. Someday I will make a furnace, I have seen some very effective and simple ones searching on google made from cylinders and powered with propane. For now, all I can really do is heat the blade to a non-magnetic state and quench (preheated oil is likely what I will use, unless I read that another medium is better for which ever type of steel I decide to use). I then plan on using a toaster oven or kitchen oven to temper. Anyway, what I wanted to ask is if I choose ATS-34 for the blade, can I expect good results from such a simple heat treating method? Im basically trying to find out if heat treating stainless steel is more involved than heat treating a carbon steel or tool steel. If I cant get good results with this method for ats-34 then I am leaning toward using O1 or D2 tool steel. So what would some of you experienced makers recommend? And if simply heating to non magnetic, quenching (edge quench in preheated oil), and tempering (toaster oven or kitchen oven) will not work for ats-34, is there some kind of wax or protective polish that can keep tool steel from rusting? I thank everyone for reading and anyone who is willing to share some of their knowledge with me. I am just beginning the learning process so please explain everything in very basic terms, if you dont mind.


Edit: I found this site and wanted to ask opinions on the procedures listed for various types of steels.

http://www.evenheat-kiln.com/technical/heattreat/heattreat.htm

Are these the correct procedures, specifically looking at ats-34 and 01 tool steel? Has anyone used these methods and if so with what results? If not, what method do you use? Thanks again.
 
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None of your listed steels will do well with your equipment capabilities. O-1 would do the best of the three, but even it needs a soak at 10-20 minutes for best results. D-2 needs higher temps and longer soaks. And ATS-34 needs temps around 1925+ for 45 minutes to harden. Stay away from stainless unless you buy and oven or plan on sending it out for heat treating.

With your listed capabilities, I would recommend a much more simple, eutectoid steel like 1084. Do a google search with your query followed by site:bladeforums.com to search for more information.

I'm all for learning by doing. However, you need to read all you can on heat treating before jumping in over your head. Read the stickies at the top of the shop-talk forum to start. Good luck, and have fun! Don't take this as anyone coming down on your plans. Just giving some advice.

--nathan
 
Yes I agree with Nathan. I am a newbie myself, but did not take me long to figure out that ATS-34 is not the best steel for beginners. I have been doing pretty good with 1095. I believe that stainless is over rated. They have done a good job of selling people on it.But that is just my opinion. It takes little effort to keep 1095, or 1084 in decent shape. Fred
 
If you want to use stainless, send it out for heat treatment. I'm sure that's what most makers do that use stainless. There are several heat treaters out there that will do a good job for a small fee. When I use any stainless or air hardening steels I send them out. With your capabilities, I agree with Nathan about 1084 or similar steel. Admiral Steel has 1075/1080 for really cheap, and it can make a good, solid knife with the right work put into it.

Todd
 
I say send it out, TKS can do it for not very much money. Then it doesn't matter how good your heat treating tools are, your blades will be heat treated as well as they come.
 
Where are you located? There may be makers nearby willing to show you their methods. Good for you for asking. It may save a lot of grief.

Bob Loveless heat treated his first blade inside a galley stove on a tanker ship - quenched it in compressor oil and tempered it beside bread baking in the oven.

His main formula for success was sh*t luck - and for predictable results, you'll need more. There is help everywhere. This forum is a good start. See if there are any makers in your area.

Stainless is not over rated. It is well worth the few bucks to get it professionally done (or to do it at someone's shop) until you have the knowledge and equipment.

If you really have to try it on your own, 1084 and O1 are pretty forgiving. 1095 will fracture or not harden. Stainless will not harden properly. For heat treating purposes, consider D2 as a stainless equivalent.

Rob!
 
Thank you all very much for your advice. To be honest I never thought of sending it out, maybe that is what I will look into doing if I begin trying to make some nicer knives down the road. For now I am only trying to make some for myself and for the fun of it, I have always loved making things and always loved knives. My biggest concern is rust, but if it is really simple to keep 1095 in good shape with a wax or polish then I will likely attempt to use something along those lines. I was considering using O1 because that is what was recommended by terry guinn in his balisong tutorial at www.edcknives.com. Again, thanks to all for you help.
 
The procedure for O1 that you refer to is almost exactly what I use, I only soak for 10 minutes and I don't use the foil for any carbon steels, just stainless. I get excellent results with this method.
If you really care for a knife made from O1, or any carbon steel, you can prevent rust by washing and wiping the blade dry after each use, and then put a little oil or even car wax on the blade, just wash these off before using on food items. And DO NOT store your knife in a leather sheath when not in use. your blade will turn dark after some use, but it will not rust if taken care of. One other thing to help prevent rust, is a fine finnish on your blade, the finer finnish has less chance to hold crud and cause rust. That is one advantage to mirrior finnished blades, the crud wipes away easier. Hope this makes sense. Dale
 
is the reason that my mentioned method for heat treating wont work as well for O1 or other steels than 1084/1080 because of the soak times? From what I have read 1084/1080 needs no real soak time, just once it becomes non-magnetic it is ready for quenching. I am guessing that O1 isn't recommended for my situation is because it is not really feasible to keep it at an accurate temperature during the soak and it will become too hot causing grain growth or other negative things, or during the soad it may cool down too. I hope that made sense, and please correct me if I am wrong. I am not trying to say anyone here is incorrect or that I do not believe them, I am simply trying to learn and am curious what type of furnance I may need in the future to be able to heat treat better steels. The way I see it if you have a furnace that is capable of keeping an accurate temperature for your needed soad times it seems that you should be able to heat treat most tool steels or other non-stainless steels of interest. I have read that once you reach the critical temperature you need for hardening (the non-magnetic point) that for certain alloys it is important to hold them there (soak) so certian molecular changes can happen, which take time, before you quench. This makes sense to me and is why I believe 1084/1080 is being recommended because these changes happen very fast so quenching may be done right away. Thanks to all for you help.
 
You're right, if you have little control over temp then your O1 HT will be less than ideal. For the cost of the steel and the lack of benefit over 10xx series steels, I would stick with deeper hardening 10xx series steels like the 1080/1084 that you mention.
 
Thank you everyone, your advice helps so much. For the learning process of heat treating and my first attempts at knife making I have decided to definately go with a 1080 or 1084 steel. I wanted stainless steel before but I think I was overly concerned with rust, which I now know shouldn't be a problem if the blade is cared for.

I also wanted to ask about heat treating foils, the stuff that is used to wrap blades in during the heating but taken off for the quenching. What is the purpose of this? It seems to me that it simply helps to keep the blade clean and prevents the build up of "scales" I think it is called, just all the burnt crap. Does it have other advantages such as a better distribution of heat? Is it more of an advantage with different steel and maybe not so necessary when using a "simple" steel? I think I did read some place that it is only really needed when heat treating stainless, but dont remember for sure. Is this something I should look into using if I attempt to heat treat any 1080 or 1084?

Last but not least, for someone in my situation, what are the pros and cons of the 1080 vs. the 1084? I have read around but they seem to always be grouped in the same category and I haven't been able to find any information that would help me decide between the two, other than simply what if offered by the vendor. As of now I will buy either one I can find, but if someone has some input on the differences between the two I would love to hear them explained. Thanks again to everyone, I really appreciate the help. It is very nice to be able to ask what may be simple and obvious questions to some without having to be shot down and told things like "if you dont know then you shouldn't be doing this", everyone has to start some place and with the vast difference of opinions it can sometimes be difficult to get reliable, non-biased information by simply using google. Its amazing how many contradicting answers google can produce, so being able to talk directly to people who know is very helpful.
 
As for my knowledge, I believe 1080 and 1084 for all intents and purposes should yield very similar results. 1084 tends to be the most recommended for simple heat treatment. It's about as close to eutectoid as it gets.

The stainless foil you are referring to is used in the heat treatment of mostly stainless steels. The long soak times (30-45 minutes) at very high temperatures (1900F+) can cause some serious problems in unprotected steel. Pitting and decarb can all but ruin a perfectly good blade. The stainless foil protects the steel from oxygen during the heat treat. It works best with air quenched steels which a great many use aluminum plates to quench. The knife can be quenched within the foil packet for protection throughout the process. In this way, the knife can be finished to very close to final finish as you won't have to grind off a thin (or thick) layer of decarb.

--nathan
 
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