Normalize when stockremoving ?

P.K.Hansen

P.K.Hansen

Joined
Aug 8, 1999
Messages
402
I'm new to this so...
Should I normalize the blade before heattreating it, when it's not being forged ? Most of the work's being done with files.
I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible the first few times, but I'd prefer to get a decent blade out of it anyway :D
 
You don't mention what type of steel or the condition it was in .Assuming high carbon it should come spheroidize annealed. It would be a good idea to normalize to relieve stress and get a finer grain.
 
Everything that mete said plus homogenizing benefits. I have micrograph after micrograph showing extreme segregation of carbide in spheroidized steels as they come from the mill. From O1 with significant alloy banding to 1095 with a very nasty carbide band running right down the center of the bar and begging to grow a crack. Normalizing can break this stuff up and is the one thing that bladesmiths can do during forging that cannot be argued will improve the steel. If the stock remover cycles this stuff away as well he will have robbed the forger of one of the last claims of superior blades;)
 
learn something new everyday, i do stock removal on o1 mainly and have goten real good results . ill start doing some normalizing ands see what i get out of it.
 
I have found a significant reduction in warpage by normalizing stock removed 01, then skipping the 1200o soak, and ramping right on up to quench heat, 1500o, then soak 15, to 20 minutes, and quench.
Kevin, Mete', is that in the ball park, or is there anything you would change? I end up with about 58RC with a 450o triple temper, one hour each.
 
Hey guys, I'm REEEEAL new here and even REEEALIER new to the idea of thinking about experimenting with making my own blades. Need something new to do....
Anyway, I started my own thread with some questions about forging. Y'all should get a good chuckle out of my first attempt at a home made forge. I did manage a fire hot enough to turn some rebar red and beat into a crude "poker":o I guess I should invest in an anvil too huh, I used one of the many large relatively flat and readily availble iron rich rocks found in the area around my house. Like I said, just experimenting right now, but if felt pretty good making metal hot enough to "work" a litlle bit.

So if anyone would like to look at the questions I posted there "newbie need info" thread I would GREATLY appreciate it. Since I'm here, What is normalizing?
 
"Normalizing" removes the internal stress caused by working the steel.
 
thanks Troop!;
I think I'm thinking that I havn't gotten much response to my thread because there is just TOOOOO much to cover. So, I've started to dive into all the literature I can find so I can "get up to speed" (such as that may be) and not need to ask so many questions.
I would like to know though if anyone here uses a coal fired forge? Are these just too inefficient? Most here seem to be referring to forges with burner nozzles and such so I'm assuming most here use gas fired forges. Correct?

I would also like to know, about how long does it take one of you guys to beat a piece of steel into a rough knife shape? What size hammers do you use? 2lb. 4lb. Bigger?
Does the weight you use depend on the point you are at in the process?
 
ttoney83, You might want to start a thread where you ask these questions. Asking them here won't get the same attention, as that is not what this thread is about.
Mete: yes it's a carbon steel, close to 1085 I guess.
I just got a heattreating DVD this morning - might be interesting :)
 
PK Hansen;
Thanks. I did that, but havn't got any responses yet. I'll keep looking though, and reading through what you guys post. I might just have to read and extrapolate and practice.
 
If you're thinking about getting a propane forge, make sure it's designed for bladesmithing. I wound up getting a farriers's forge at a fair price, and now I'm the one that's "paying the price." Now I have to mod (at least somewhat) the thing to make it work for smithing knives.
 
I'm sorry Troop, but I gotta disagree 100%

For the price you'll pay for a premade forge, you can make your own setup and have a piece of equipment that will outperform and outlast whatever you'd buy.

Sure, there's the convenience of having it all done for you, but seriously, is that a worthwhile trade against the peace of mind knowing you've got a well made, dedicated blademaker's forge? Not to mention the pride in a job well done.

Forges are not a very complicated bit of gear, all things considered. The real trick is making them durable enough and efficient enough to be better than what you'd buy premade. That is really, a matter of material choice and sufficient insulation.

Look on the websites of some of the fulltime knifemakers, and you'll find a rediculous amount of good information teaching you how to build a forge, and the ins and outs and pros and cons of different designs.
 
Dan Zawacki said:
I'm sorry Troop, but I gotta disagree 100%

For the price you'll pay for a premade forge, you can make your own setup and have a piece of equipment that will outperform and outlast whatever you'd buy.

Sure, there's the convenience of having it all done for you, but seriously, is that a worthwhile trade against the peace of mind knowing you've got a well made, dedicated blademaker's forge? Not to mention the pride in a job well done.

Forges are not a very complicated bit of gear, all things considered. The real trick is making them durable enough and efficient enough to be better than what you'd buy premade. That is really, a matter of material choice and sufficient insulation.

Look on the websites of some of the fulltime knifemakers, and you'll find a rediculous amount of good information teaching you how to build a forge, and the ins and outs and pros and cons of different designs.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Dan. (The proverbial).... "Now you tell me." I dropped 650.00 for the forge that I have, only to find out it stinks for bladesmithing.
 
Ouch...

Live and learn I guess, as that's all you can really do now that the cash is spent...

This is one of the reasopns I still havn't bought a good grinder. Gronders are pricey, and I was really hoping I could do just as well with something less expensive. All in all, I may just end up investing in a welder and make my own. If I do, I'll likely buy the plans that are floating around here for sale on the premise that if the design is sturdy enough to be useful without any welding, it's probably benefit from welding in appropriate places and rival the good pricey machines for a lot less.

Then I end up with the side benefit of finally owning a welder!
 
Dan Zawacki said:
Ouch...

Live and learn I guess, as that's all you can really do now that the cash is spent...

This is one of the reasopns I still havn't bought a good grinder. Gronders are pricey, and I was really hoping I could do just as well with something less expensive. All in all, I may just end up investing in a welder and make my own. If I do, I'll likely buy the plans that are floating around here for sale on the premise that if the design is sturdy enough to be useful without any welding, it's probably benefit from welding in appropriate places and rival the good pricey machines for a lot less.

Then I end up with the side benefit of finally owning a welder!
Click to expand...

Dan,
Please make me one, too....if it's not too much trouble.:D
I need one desperately. One of the lower-end models that I'm looking at go for around 1700.00. (talk about "ouch".)
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Everything that mete said plus homogenizing benefits. If the stock remover cycles this stuff away as well he will have robbed the forger of one of the last claims of superior blades;)
Click to expand...

Kevin
I am working with 13C26 for the first time, should air-hardening steel be "normalized"?? Is yes what would you recommend for this steel
Thanks
Tom
So.Ga.
 
I'd be quite happy to make a few for fellow forumites, if *I* ever get around to doing one for myself!

You'd think that draw filing a few would be enough motivation to convince me to get my shiznit together and do it, but fact of the matter is, the basic little $100 wire welder at home depot is out of my price rage right now, and for the forseeable future... Things have gone awfully badly lately, and don't look to be getting better in the near future.
 
Dan, your knives look good, see if you can get an independant sporting goods store (if there are any in your area) to allow you to put something in on consignment. If you sell a knife, roll the proceeds back into tooling that will help you make more knives, faster.
Just a thought.

-Page
 
Wow, coming from you that is, indeed high praise, and I'm quite humbled!

Do you really think that what I've done is of a level that'd be worth trying to sell? I have no question as to the quality of the HT, I tested that little clip point and it cuts like a champ, but I see work like some of the folks at Ashokan were showing off and get all nervous that the little bits of scrap I'm toting around just don't measure up!

I'm sure we're all our own worst critics, but I'm not at all satisfied by the level of fit and finish I'm producing.

Hell, I guess that the worst that could happen is they won't sell!

Thanks
 
so make one that you will accept the level of fit and finish on (attention to detail) make it really the best work you can do. Photograph it for your portfolio, (photograph the other ones too from their best angles, I'm kicking myself for the ones that have gotten away unphotographed which is most of my work for the last 15 years which is really inexcusable when you consider that I am actually a professional photographer by training) then find out what the market will offer for it. Don't be surprised if you don't make any sort of hourly return on your first sales, make sure that someone gets a good knife, and that your reputation starts based on that. As you sell more enjoy the fact that you can create a beautiful and functional tool, and invest at least a portion of every sale back into tooling. Your work will get faster and better, your confidence will increase, your reputation will (hopefully) grow, and you'll eventually get to the point where it is no longer just a hobby (obsession) that is buying it's own supplies, but an actual business if you want it to be.

-Page
 
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