Not Just Tough

cm_bushman said:
A greater trade off is made with H-13, another tool steel, though it's usually run under 50RC with wear resistance half again that of S-7, making it impractical for knives.
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I have a Winkler Breaching axe made in H13~ tested it on concrete and cinderblocks (you can find my review at the ATH forum) and the edge barely damaged. Slight chips but a few runs on the stone and it's back for biz.
Tested a Horton S7 chopper- the convex grind is too thick and i might be able to destroy some robots but it is not your average trail blazer.
Enter Big Chris 3V Barong and it happened to be my all-around chopper- I dwell mainly in clearing bush for the local hash runners and at times we will run into messy obstacles of gigantic fallen tree trunks. Not cutting through it with the Barong but clearing some of these branches and thorny vines will take you to hell. Even with the high wear characteristic of 3V the hard branches managed to scratch it deep.

Now i do use parang/golok made out of 5160 but depending on the type of activity you will have on the day, i select my choppers for that intent.Spring steel, not only 5160 has been proven for ages with its durability, toughness, good edge retention and affordability, not to mention average rust resistance with care.

Take your best chopper now and test it in your wildest dream. You will learn more about what you have and missed.
 
james terrio said:
Interestingly, pure toughness doesn't seem to rank as highly among comp cutters as we might think. It seems that most winning competitors are using CPM-M4 for its edge-retention.
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Even more helpful answers in the meantime. Thanks to everyone contributing.

I admit I do not know what competition choppers are. Are these axes used in competitions where people chop through logs?

To give some more background for my question: I love chopping knives (and billhawks and...). It is mostly irrational, yet I do. Of course, these have to take a lot of impact, but you also want a keen edge and you do not not mind when it lasts. The typical answer is to use 5160 with a differential temper. Given the hype surrounding "super steels", I am somewhat surprised that I have not heard of steels which would seriously outperform 5160 - as good as it is. INFI was one of the answers I expected, but it is proprietary and you are dependent on, if Busse sells what you want to have or not. So, I hope to hear of other steels.
 
Hans Asmussen said:
I admit I do not know what competition choppers are.
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Hardheart's link will give you all the basics on them. There are lots of videos about cutting competitions on youtube, as well.

I tend to think of comp cutters as analogous to top-fuel dragsters - built mainly for straight-line speed.
 
Supracor is pretty much the exact opposite of what he is looking for. The impact toughness is really low, which makes sense since it is 46% carbide.
 
Sorry. Went to the range of super steels with crazy edge retentions.

I'm thinking, could it be composites we missing out as tough materials for cutlery?
Talonite or SM-100 haven't been tested extensively to give us a convincing result. I've tried NiTinol on my own but it's just experimenting.

What's your test medium, Hans?
 
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Hans Asmussen said:
I have already assumed that the steels are properly heat treated. And fairly tough is not enough. So, if it helps you assume the toughness of a correctly heat treated 5160 at 55 HRC and other steels at 60 HRC or more. The steel at 60 HRC or more should have at least the toughness of 5160 at 55 HRC. Are there such steels?
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No.

You have choosen one of the toughest steel grades wich includes little to no alloys and it should be kept relativly soft. Consider, that any additional element, carbon or anything else drops down toughness and any point more in hardness drops down the abillity to bend, there ist none.

If you want the toughest blade at HRC 60, take a 5160.
 
JayGoliath said:
What's your test medium, Hans?
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Hard wood with knots, close to the ground. Include glancing blows or hitting a stone.

hardheart said:
try this one, http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/d...s/Staminal.pdf
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Thank you. By the way, the chart makes S5 look quite impressive given that it is at 61HRC.

Blop said:
If you want the toughest blade at HRC 60, take a 5160
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Is that so? I thought that, for instance, Nickel increases the toughness, and that elements forming fine carbides might also help. As far as I see, Infi surpasses 5160 at 60HRC.
 
Interesting thread. Got me wondering and I did a little googling. Here's what Estwing uses in their tools.

J.S. Carter said:
I emailed Estwing to find out what the steel is and they answered me! the following is their answer

"Dear Jason,

Our tools are manufactured from 1055 carbon steel, special bar quality, and
heat treated to ASME safety requirements, which is 45-60 Rockwell standard.

I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have further questions.

Sincerely;
Yolanda Moline"

So there we have it. I'm sure the HRC qoute of 45-60 runs the full spectrum of their line. from 45HRC for there hammers and axes, to the 60HRC for their geological picks.

I just ordered a 40oz (2 1/2 pound) cross peen from them for forge work! (about $30.00)
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Hans Asmussen said:
Thank you. By the way, the chart makes S5 look quite impressive given that it is at 61HRC.


Is that so? I thought that, for instance, Nickel increases the toughness, and that elements forming fine carbides might also help. As far as I see, Infi surpasses 5160 at 60HRC.
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S5 is pretty impressive from what I have read. It just is not as available as S7, so you don't see it in knives. Steels used in knives are in the vast majority the result of needs in other industries. So the most available and best priced for those other uses makes it way to the knife enthusiast.

Nickel does increase toughness, it does not form carbide. Carbides don't help, but the smaller the carbide, the lesser the impact on toughness.
 
I would suggest 9260, 8670m, L6, À8m, S5, and a couple similar steels. Even then, some detailed testing would be needed. Also steel hardness and toughness are not inversely related. Many steels, though not all, have peaks in toughness at higher hardness, then drop in both toughness and hardness, then recover their toughness as the hardness drops even more, though the hardness may be too low to be useful by that point. Also, everyone has their own ideas about what is a "good" heat treatment. Some are ok, others are just strange.
 
I just read in the thread "5160 or L6 for swords?" that S7 has the higher dented toughness while S5 has the higher undented toughness. Is this a known effect and can it be explained?
 
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