not to offend Spyderco and BM fans, but this happened...

Y

yinyu

Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
35
looks like Spyderco and Benchmade are considered the best user knife here ( let's exclude those semi-custom such as Strider, CR...). I even read an article in current issue of BLADE says that the Manix perhaps has the strongest lock in planet...... Hower, I used my brand new BM 707 D2 for the first time to cut open
a regular USPS priority mail packaging box today, which means I used it only once. and I found the edge is slightly rolled, cannot see clearly but I can
feel the rolled edge with finger. I recalled I handled a Spyderco Manix, I did a spine whack with only moderate force against a rubber bucket and the lock quickly disengaged and cut my finger. I cannot believe this happens to Manix, and I tried with mini Manix and same thing happened. I really don't know how those good words about BM/Spydie come out and why you guys like them so much? sorry if I offend you fans....
 
Thats strange, as soon as I read this I took out my full size Manix and gave it a couple good spine whacks against the carpeted floor and it didnt budge a bit.
 
No way a cardboard box would do what you described to any D2 blade. Which, by the way, has nothing to do with BM but with the type of steel. I sure don't want to be the first responding to your post and say you are not telling the truth but I just can't believe that one. Maybe you didn't check it thoroughly enough when you got the knife????....maybe??

As far as the Manix lock failures, I was able to get my to fail several times (I used a towel on my workbench and wore a leather glove [duh]). I couldn't get it to fail with just downward pressure. Almost the only time one might encounter a "whack" to the spine like this would be in a self defense situation, which is the worst time to have knife failure. I have always thought of my Manix as a superior SD knife but now I'm not sure. If it took a good hit on the spine from another knife, a stick, or ever a wall or table, one might not know the blade had folded or even be cut severaly enough to cause one to drop it. Then what? A self defense knife blade cannot fold under ANY circumstances. Will I have to move to only an Axis lock or fixed blade? I'm not a young man anymore. That, along with 6 left knee surgerys has left me unable to run. I practice knife work and carry a knife for SD. This is all very interesting.


I also did a spine "whack" test with an old $10 Mtech liner lock. The liner finally bent (I really had to hit the bench hard before the liner bent) but the blade never did fold up like the Manix. I must admit I am quite surprised and I'm wondering what others are going to say.

My question is: what is a reasonable spine whack test and how does one measure it?

Regards
 
What kind of idiot cuts himself on a spine wack test? What did you expect to happen? That's like testing a gun safety by looking down the barrel and pulling the trigger.

Edit: My point is that if you're testing the knife in such a way where one of the two expected outcomes is that the lock will fail and the blade will be forced back towards you, you might want to make sure nothing is in the path of that blade.
 
You guys scared me. I just put my mini manix through spine whacks on the leather handle of an Estwing hammer, and no probs. I also tested out my mini-skirmish and BM HK-34 (axis lock). No probs there either.
 
I have gotten factory knives with a roll on the edge before. this doesent seem like a big deal i believe benchmade will even resharpen under waranty.

As for the lock I cant speak for THe manix But i can tell you that this is why i no longer carry my Spyderco Veil. The lock failed repeatedly during a similar test (when i was trying to show a newbie to my rescue squad the difference between his 20$ chineese knife and my Spyderco):jerkit:
 
I know my post will perhaps arouse some people here that's why I hesitate to start this thread but being honest is basic for a knifenut, isn't it? actually I really want to hear some good stories why BMand spydercos are so much appreciated.
my 707 D2 is a limited edition bought new. it comes really sharp, the sharpest one I ever handled ( maybe that's the reason it's easily rolled?). I used it for the first time to cut the box open, (just open it, didn't cut it to pieces). the edge roll is very slight actually, I did not notice it until I put my finger on the edge and I DID feel the rolling, so I looked at it against light and did see a 2mm range "abnormal" . I'm no less surprised by this than you guys, I wiped the edge by a DMT for 4 or 5 times on each side and the edge is back to normal, maybe this is what it supposed to be? I don't know. ... but I'm telling you what I experienced.

The 2 Manix are lightly used, perhaps less than 2 yrs old.from my friend. open and close smoothly, no blade play etc.
I actually didn't want to do the whack at first but I suddenly recall what I saw in Cold Steel video, I know CS might exaggerate but I often heard that Manix have one of the best locks so I decide to do a try. this is what I did.
I hold the handle, hit the spine onto a rubber bucket. (I don't want to leave any marks on the blade, so I used bucket, not a hard thing, isn't it ), with moderate force, there's indeed no marks on the blade, but I felt the pain and saw the blood from my hand........
I swear what I said is true....maybe I'm just unlucky? maybe because the manix is used?... I don't know, or maybe I should n't do the test at all, because that's just not appropriate.....I really do not know.
 
longbeachguy said:
You guys scared me. I just put my mini manix through spine whacks on the leather handle of an Estwing hammer, and no probs. I also tested out my mini-skirmish and BM HK-34 (axis lock). No probs there either.
Click to expand...

I would not expect any problems form an Axis lock. Next best thing to a fixed blade. I would also be very surprise of failure with a will made frame lock like the Shirmish. But after a little thought after my testing of the Manix (I posted above) I can see how a lockback could possibly be the weakest lock when it comes to an impact (whack) test (but strong for a pressure test). As I mentioned in my previous post, the Mtech liner lock bent but the blade did not close. Impact causes a vibration through the entire knife that is not there during a pressure test. The lockback is held in place by a "torsion" style spring. That vibration could possibly cause the locking bar to "jump" just enough to cause the lock to fail. Even one machined to tight specs like the Manix. Maybe I'm asking too much from this type of lock. It's still a wonderful working knife but for SD, I think I stick to an Axis lock for fixed blade or even a finely fitted liner or frame lock. Sorry for repeating some things from my first post.

Regards
 
Just tried the same spine what test on a new Ontario Rat-1 folder I got today. For those that don't know this knife, it has a very will fitted liner lock. Happy to say no failures and the knife is still working perfectly.

Regards
 
You're not alone with regards to the Manix (and mini-Manix). I tried a couple of light but fast "spine-taps" (IMHO, not hard enough to be considered "whacks"), with the Manix and a mini-Manix, to the tip of my rubber-soled, police boot, and they both failed readily.

My Spyderco Stretch also easily failed, but no other Spyderco I own failed, and I own close to 25 other models. I think it might have something to do with the angle of the lock-bar tooth (*Sal once said something to the effect that they sometimes use a negative angle on the lock-bar tooth, in order to get a good catch on the notch*) as it contacts the tang cut-out. I think the sudden bump's pressure causes the tip of lock-bar's tooth to "bounce" off of the tang cut-out's notch.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a stiffer spring and a change to the geometry of the lock-bar's tooth would prevent this sort of thing from happening. I'm sure that the Manix's lock can handle a huge amount of weight on its lock, but I think that a small, sudden, and fast bump can cause the lock-bar tooth to bounce off. I'm interested to hear what the experts here think.

Edited to add links and quote:
*The information Sal posted about the lock-bar tooth’s angle can be seen in this thread:
http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21580&highlight=Lockback
And in this post:
http://spyderco.com/forums/showpost.php?p=250632&postcount=61

“At Spyderco we go to great lengths to make sure this angle is 90 degrees or negative in the other direction to insure a "hook", not a "ramp". the more pressure that is applied to the above lock, the more likely the lock will squirt upwards which will disengage the lock.

sal”



Regards,
3G
 
3Guardsmen said:
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a stiffer spring and a change to the geometry of the lock-bar's tooth would prevent this sort of thing from happening. I'm sure that the Manix's lock can handle a huge amount of weight on its lock, but I think that a small, sudden, and fast bump can cause the lock-bar tooth to bounce off. I'm interested to hear what the experts here think.
Click to expand...

Agree, as mentioned in my above posts. However, I looked at the lock notch under magnification and it appears to be 90 degrees on the Manix. My guess is that we have discovered an inherent weakness in this type of lock design. In other words, this is a lockback design problem and not a Spyderco problem. A stiffer spring may help, as you suggest, but there is a point where a woman, young or old person won't be able to close their knife. I hate to admit it (because I love Spyderco knives) but because I carry a knife for SD purposes and practice knife SD techniques, I may be thinning out part of my Spyderco collection. I'm sort of in mild shock but I'm REALLY glad to find this out. Oops, starting to repeat myself again. I have several posts in this thread already.
 
Haven't had the experience of handling/testing either of those two, and this might be slightly OT, but IIRC, wasn't the original Chinook's lock the strongest? IIRC, the lock strength machine couldn't break it.

That said, I'm pretty much in agreement with 3Guardsmen about the locking bar bouncing a bit.
 
What you describe as rolled edge may be just not removed wire edge (from factory sharpening) - wire edge (when aligned) seems as extremly sharp and easily cuts paper, however it bends to side (rolls) at first use (harder than paper :))
 
I've had four Benchmade D2 folders, and they've ranged from pretty good, on factory sharpness, all the way to amazing. But never had any trouble with any of them.

As per lockbacks, there are some inherent disadvantages you have to accept when buying a lock of that genre....any lock you can't "see" it's engagement before you buy seems like it could be at some greater risk. Coupled with the fact that, in my opinion, lockbacks are hopelessly outperformed in convenience opening and closing) by some more advanced locks (compression, axis). I never trusted lockbacks that much.
 
I could see how there is a difference between a vibration from a spine whack and the constant pressure being applied in a vice or something. I don't know as I don't carry for SD. So a lock-back could be both stronger and weaker, whatever that means:confused: .
 
bladeprince said:
Just tried the same spine what test on a new Ontario Rat-1 folder I got today. For those that don't know this knife, it has a very will fitted liner lock. Happy to say no failures and the knife is still working perfectly.

Regards
Click to expand...
I have one also, very impressive knife, the RAT-1 folder.:thumbup:
 
How about the chinook II since both it and the manix are very similar in design? I ask because this is my sd knife of choice and will have to check it out later on. :confused:
 
Spyderco and Benchmade make excellent user knives. So many in fact that some of their knives are better than others for one purpose or another, and some individual knives may not be as reliable, due to the vagaries of the manufacturing process. These are not hand-tuned customs.

The spine-whack test suffers from a lack of rigor. How hard to hit the blade and on what surface combine to make it a unique experience each time. That doesn't mean it's a bad test, since it can tell you how happy you're going to be with the specific knife you are holding. It does not necessarily tell you how good the model is or the company.

As far as the rolled edge, I believe huugh is correct. Until you sharpen a new knife yourself, you really don't know what you've got for an edge. The factory edge can have a number of weaknesses, none of them inherent in the blade geometry or the steel. Touch it up first and then see how it holds up.
 
A couple of quick comments from the peanut gallery:

1) Wire edges which roll easily are fairly common (in my experience) on knives which come sharp from the factory.

2) On an impact test (spine whack) the massive lockbar which gives the Manix, Mini-Manix and Chinook such high ultimate failure strength works against it. The inertia of the lockbar will tend to keep it in motion when the blade comes to a sudden stop. This tends to lift the bar out of the notch, releasing the blade. Personally, I don't think the lock notch in the blade tang is deep enough on most knives. I also feel that if impact resistance is that important to you, a folding knife is the wrong tool for the job. To quote bladeprince: "A self defense knife blade cannot fold under ANY circumstances." The only way to meet that criteria is with a knife that doesn't fold (i.e. a fixed blade knife).
 
i agree with the others, factory edges sometimes roll...

comment on spinwacking an axis lock: my 920 switchback has one spring that pops in and out of being engaged, even with one spring disengaged it passes a spine wack without issue:thumbup: i have been meaning to send it in for months, problem is that it still works fine and i can't stand to be without it!

i personally like both companies, just wish spyderco would make a few knives with locks OTHER that liners and lockbacks!!!!
ryan
 
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