not to offend Spyderco and BM fans, but this happened...

skunked · Nov 4, 2006

Okay, enough bs about the best lock. A locking feature a knife is there to add an extra layer of user protection not to protect the user from his own stupidity. ANY lock can and will fail if abused enough. I have only had a lock fail once, while doing something stupid. If you rely upon a lock to protect you while you are doing something stupid and it fails..well if your lucky you learn a lesson, if you are unlucky..well then "out of the gene pool."
Expecting a folder to be as sturdy as a fixed blade is just plain unrealistic. If you are using a locking knife in a situation where you can expect a "spine whack" on a routine basis then you need to get a fixed blade knife.

yablanowitz · Nov 4, 2006

Try the Paramilitary or ATR. Both have compression locks, which may look like a liner lock, but they work completely different. Blade release is from the back, so you never get anything in the path of the edge. :thumbup:

Edited to add: what skunked said. I get more work done with my slipjoint UKPK than my Manix.

SAK · Nov 4, 2006

05dr said:
i personally like both companies, just wish spyderco would make a few knives with locks OTHER that liners and lockbacks!!!!
ryan

Spyderco also makes knives with compression locks.

--SAK

Artfully Martial · Nov 4, 2006

Well, If you want a folder that can't close on you, try a bali or maybe the ET (I think).

j.h · Nov 4, 2006

The only knife I have ever had a lock failure problem with is the UKPK, and its not designed to "lock". I used it like I would a locking knife, and it slipped closed on my hand. I love everything else about the UKPK and appreciate the intent/purpose, but would personally never buy a slippy because I like locking folders.

I have never felt like risking my perfectly good knives with any forced effort at trying to make them fail. Let them do that at the factory. You will never see me taking my Manix or any other knife and whacking it just to see when it breaks.

I do not prefer the compression lock, at all. I have great confidence in a framelock, and like the liner lock and various lockback iterations just fine.

I love folders. I do agree however, that if lock failure is a real concern, you need to switch to a fixed blade knife.

Twindog · Nov 4, 2006

I just gave my Manix a lot-of-whacks test on a 2x4 and the lock didn't budge. I hit it hard enouth to leave a lot of grooves in the board, but I never had the impression that the lock was anywhere near failure.

J_Curd · Nov 4, 2006

My Cara Cara failed under direct tip pressure...$5,000 ER bill and my right index finger still doesnt bend fully. I believe I MIGHT have put slight pressure on the lock the way I was holding the knife, but in no way will I trust it as a rugged self-defense knife. I do carry it daily, but if ever used in a SD capacity, slashing is the only route.

Esav Benyamin · Nov 4, 2006

05dr said:
just wish spyderco would make a few knives with locks OTHER that liners and lockbacks!!!!

How about ball locks (DoDo, D'Allara) and compression locks (Yojimbo, Para Military) and framelocks (Cricket, Spin, and Volpe)?

HoB · Nov 4, 2006

I think I can be considered a Spyderco fan, but nobody is perfect and sometimes something goes wrong. My Manix did also disengage on sharp taps (whacks if you will but they were sharp not hard and out of the wrist). And I agree with who ever said that the lock bar did not engage deeply enough. Spyderco fixed it and the Manix that I have now will not move unless unlocked. I would not see the problem of a single knife as a reflection on the overall quality of the knifes from a certain company. Yes, it blows if you got one with a problem, but I doubt that you find any company with a 100% QC record.

As long as you tap it only on something hard and don't use armswings. I think "spine whacking" is a perfectly legitimate test, and not one that even approaches the failure limit on a properly executed knife. It should be a test to see whether the lockbar stays engaged reliable, NOT whether or when the lockbar itself fails.

Rolling factory edges are so common it is hardly worth talking about. It should also be as easily fixed.

Vivi · Nov 4, 2006

I've never experienced this with any knife from Spyderco. Those knives include: Manix, D'allara, Endura 3, Delica 4, Byrd G10 Meadowlark, Byrd G10 Cara Cara, FRN Dragonfly and Paramilitary. I gave them all spinewhacks and they never failed me. Currently I own the E3 and the two Byrds, I just gave them all forceful, rapid spinewhacks and did pressure testing on the tip too. None of them budged in the slightest. With the Endura I ended up doing full arm swing spinewhacks, still no failure.

I'm genuinely surprised to read this is so common of an experience for Manix users. I batoned and chopped with mine and the only negative effect I experienced was a loosening of the pivot, which I fixed with a SAK screwdriver.

I also question some peoples spinewhacking methods. Why would you keep your hand in the path of the sharpened blade when spinewhacking? Hold it by the sides. Even better, wrap the edge in tape if you're doing a lot of them.

05dr · Nov 4, 2006

trying to sell me on alternate spyderco locks is HUGELY off topic, but in the spirit of good discourse....

i consider frame locks just a touch better that liners. the kershaws seem to be executed perfectly (for a factory knife) but he handle just didn't fit my hand. furthermore, i am most interested in bigger folders, definately nothing with a blade less than 3" which knocks 4/7 right out. regarding the volpe i think it looks great but the lock seemed really hard to disengage when i tried it and i already have a bm 920 in that nitch. if i wanted a big fat plastic handled knife i would go with a ritter, just like the bm plastic handle better, nothin more to it.

lastly are the atr and para. i have a full size mili and less that zero interest in a knife with a huge handle but a small blade. no problems with the handle, just give me the matching blade. with regard to the atr, was interested in the ti model but the price is a bit ridiculous. i think some bm's are overpriced and it costs more that a fullsize skirmish. anyways, love spyderco, wish they weren't allergic to big blades WITH primo locks. i would definately consider another large spydie if they could just tweek the formula... regarding my bg42cf mili, i considered it a trade off, and couldn't be happier!

anyways, back on topic everyone!!!

Artfully Martial · Nov 4, 2006

Again, kind of a weird situation that lockbacks, I get the impression, are widely considered to be essentially idiot proof to make, whereas linerlocks are almost impossible to make correctly. But my lockbacks (as a kid) sucked, (granted, they were cheap) and even my cheap liner locks were tough as nails. I've long been thinking we need to reevaluate our position on lock genres. Here we're not just seeing lockbacks fail, but widely considered to be among the toughest of all lockbacks.

Or maybe we can all just get axis locks.

I love the compression lock, mentioned earlier (despite my disputed experience that there are lots of associated QC issues, minor though they are), but they should suffer the same reliability issues as the conventional liner lock, although the strength and ease of use are greatly increased. I buy them for the ease of use factor, and I've never seen how strength could really ever be an issue in locks, but if your fear is that it'll just slip off the tang (in regards to liner locks), you ought to share that for compression locks.

Never been a problem for me though, so I love the compression lock. Universally superior to the liner lock in my opinion.

ecmouse · Nov 4, 2006

just gave my manix the (whack test) several times
the lock held

Danbo · Nov 4, 2006

Really. The NERVE of Spyderco and Benchmade. I just hammered the point of my Military into my forehead, and it left a big moon shaped crater! Then, I sliced my carotid artery with my Benchmade Presidio and the damn thing cut me! :jerkit:

Spine wacking is for morons, IMHO.

3Guardsmen · Nov 5, 2006

Danbo said:
Spine wacking is for morons, IMHO.

Since when are "morons" people who want to keep their fingers if their folding knives are called upon to be used hard, whether for rugged utility use or as a last ditch SD tool?

I hope you realize that the following people are just a few of those you've just classified as "morons":
-Sal Glesser
-Ernest Emerson
-Mick Strider
-Rick Hinderer
-A.T. Barr
-Joe Talmadge
-Steve Harvey
-Mike Turber
-Cliff Stamp
-Me (and I don't take kindly to being called a "moron")
-I could keep this list going if you'd like.

Since when does testing the advertised limits of a product make one a "moron"?

I think it reflects a higher degree of intelligence, to be honest, and makes for a better understanding of how to refine a design. Imagine if people hadn't tested knife locks to the extent they have. Do you think the "Axis" lock would have come about? How about the "Compression lock", or even the "Frame lock"?

To make a very broad-based insult, as you have just done, serves as nothing more than as a means to advertise one's lack of ability to think before posting.

3G

Artfully Martial · Nov 5, 2006

Spine whack survival is important to me, but I don't really know why. I don't think that it represents a normal or even abnormal use scenario of the knife. It would certainly bother me that a knife I used failed under a moderate spine whack, even though I can't imagine where that situation would come up. We see that some plenty strong locks, when force is applied more gradually, fail spine whacks. Spine whacks, I imagine, were done to evaluate the strength easily for the situations that would use this more realistic gradual onset of force. But, unfortunately, it seems the analogy was flawed. Spine whacks don't give an accurate sense on how the knife will perform in normal use of the lock.

That said, even though I feel it's probably unecessary, I'd be very disappointed if a Manix failed a moderate spine whack.

It's important to remember, spine whack testers of the world, that spine whacking can hurt a knife seriously, even if it passes. It's caused liner lock wear for me and has begun small fractures in the lock insert on some lockbacks, which eventually lead to lock failure down the road.

Vivi · Nov 5, 2006

AM said:
Again, kind of a weird situation that lockbacks, I get the impression, are widely considered to be essentially idiot proof to make, whereas linerlocks are almost impossible to make correctly. But my lockbacks (as a kid) sucked, (granted, they were cheap) and even my cheap liner locks were tough as nails. I've long been thinking we need to reevaluate our position on lock genres. Here we're not just seeing lockbacks fail, but widely considered to be among the toughest of all lockbacks.

This behaviour seems to be an exception based on my own personal experiences and what I've read in my time here. Personal experiences will vary, as you note in your post, your experience with lockbacks and liner locks is utterly contradictory to what I've experienced. It's good to keep in mind how much a persons experience can vary, because it's easy to forget and resort to pointing fingers and calling names. FWIW, the only locks I've ever had fail on me were liner locks, both due to mechanical failure and applied pressures from my hand. They tend to develop play far, far more easily than lockbacks for me as well, and are more difficult for me to manipulate overall (Largely due to ball detents, which is much jerkier than the way a lockback holds a blade closed. Harder for me to close as well). Personally I'd love it if someone could send me one of their Manix knives that fails a spinewhack for me to test myself and dissasemble, considering how reliable my old one was. I wonder if any variation could be detected by eye.

Danbo said:
Spine wacking is for morons, IMHO.

It would be more beneficial to discussion to explain why you feel this type of testing is improper rather than merely insulting those who do it. One would expect this to be trvial for you given how confidently you display your opinion.

3Guardsmen · Nov 5, 2006

Esav Benyamin · Nov 5, 2006

Wow. Danbo tossed off a quick comment, with which you disagree. Cool. But you consider it important enough to go to this much trouble to refute it? Does the term "obsessive" ring a bell?

3Guardsmen · Nov 5, 2006

Esav Benyamin said:
Wow. Danbo tossed off a quick comment, with which you disagree. Cool. But you consider it important enough to go to this much trouble to refute it? Does the term "obsessive" ring a bell?

No, but the term "accountability" does.

BTW, You're one of the people he lumped into his insult.

Regards,
3G

not to offend Spyderco and BM fans, but this happened...

skunked

yablanowitz

SAK

Artfully Martial

j.h

Twindog

J_Curd

Esav Benyamin

MidniteSuperMod

HoB

Vivi

05dr

Artfully Martial

ecmouse

Danbo

3Guardsmen

Artfully Martial

Vivi

3Guardsmen

Esav Benyamin

MidniteSuperMod

3Guardsmen