Now I know what "staining" is

Joined
Oct 17, 1999
Messages
98
For a long time I have heard people refer to "stains" on carbon steel blades, and I never what they were talking about. I thought they meant rust.

Now I know.

I was cutting tomatos with a knife made out of O-1 and within 5 minutes it developed bluish-brown blotches all over the blade. They don't seem to come off to easily either.

No wonder kitchen knives are made of stainless.

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Oderint dum metuant
 
Does anybody know, chemically, what the difference is between these stains and rust?

I've got an Old Timer that is almost black with this stain but rust free. Are tomato stains a protection against rust?

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Bill

Unfortunate but Increasingly Necessary Disclaimer:

While this post likely contains incorrect information, fuzzy logic, poor grammar and misspelled words, what it does not contain is intentional malevolence toward anyone.




[This message has been edited by Uncle Bill (edited 20 November 1999).]
 
Rust is ferric oxide (Fe2O3); the black stuff is ferrous oxide (FeO). Ferrous oxide has had some of its lust for oxygen satisfied so it is no longer so obsessed with the sexual urge that it spends every night hanging around bars looking for it.... It retains a coat of oil better than an unblued blade.

Ferrous oxide is not really blue. If the layer is just the right thickness, the wavelength of blue light, the blue component of white light penetrates to the steel below and is reflected back at you. By varying the thickness of the coating you can get other colors too, orange to gold mostly. When it's too thick for any of those optical effects it looks black. Black is safest if it's rust prevention you want.

Parkerizing is a similar process to bluing and makes a more porous surface that absorbs oil better than blued steel, so if you keep parkerized steel oiled it's better rust prevention than bluing -- but if you don't, it isn't.

The same basic process, as you've observed, happens with acid foods and fruit juices. It tends to come out as a beautiful mottled surface that displays different colors when held in a good light and turned this way and that. It has character, much more character than a uniformly black "bluing" job.

Frankly, it's not great rust prevention. You still have to keep it oiled. It's pretty, though.
smile.gif
When the ferrous oxide coating first forms it's fragile and you have to be careful to avoid polishing it off for the first few days until it hardens. Even after it's hardened you can still scratch it or wear it off, but it's easy to renew.

If you'd rather have the looks of plain old boring bright steel (what's wrong with you???) then you'll find it easier to polish off the beautiful patina if you do it very soon after it forms.

If you have better taste than that, you can buy cold bluing solution at any gun shop, or you can try cutting a lemon in half and rubbing the blade with it. If you use the knife in the kitchen, though, especially for cutting acid foods like lemons and tomatoes, it'll happen naturally ... few people bother deliberately patinating kitchen knives; they just let it happen.

With a random process like that sometimes it doesn't come out looking so great ... if your knife is starting to develop some patina and doesn't look great, try a lemon or a tomato on it to accelerate the process and get past that stage. Many people rub a new blade with a lemon right off because it's the early stages of patinization that don't look so great -- rub it with a lemon and you have some control over what's happening and you can spread the juice over the whole blade and avoid the early stage when it looks like a bright blade with one or two stains.

-Cougar Allen :{)

P.S. I had to edit this post because I had confused ferric and ferrous oxide and Walt corrected me -- more details below in this thread.

-Cougar :{)


[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 20 November 1999).]
 
That is why I like Carbon Steel blades. To me each stain is a memory. I have old blades that I used on camping or hunting or fishing trips that got stained. I can look at the blade and remember how that stain got there.
I have a blade that I used on a fishing trip with my favorite Uncle. It got stained from a big turtle's blood. My Uncle died but I still have the memories. I would never polish that blade.

I have my Grandfathers pocket knife that is almost black with stains. That is the way it was in his pocket, that's the way I'll keep it.

Call me a sentimental fool but, I like the stains.

Thanks for the memories.

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For the Weapons of our warfare are not of this world but mighty through God to demolish strongholds
 
Jeez, coug, after failing miserably yesterday and having you correct me, I hesitate to suggest that you may have mixed up ferrous and ferric. Ferrous is divalent iron (+2), which in ferrous oxide, has given up two electrons to oxygen, forming Fe302. Ferric is trivalent iron (+3) which has given up three electrons to oxygen, forming Fe203. Thus ferric oxide is actually oxidized more than ferrous, not less as you stated.

I do believe that you have also mixed up what rust is. It is generally considered to be ferric oxide and ferric hydroxide. The protective compound is Fe302, ferrous oxide.

Now, I could be wrong on all of this, but check out this site, a primer on rust: http://www.loganact.com/mwn/howto/rust/rust.html

I await your reply with interest. Walt
 
This metallurgy is very interesting. I wonder if anyone can tell us why the simple presence of chromium, in sufficient concentrations, can prevent or reduce staining?

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Oderint dum metuant
 
Overcoming my reluctance to post anything more until I find out how accurate I was about rust, here is something I found at this site:
http://www.intercorr.com/discuss/gencorr/203.html

I will print it out for you to save you time:

Rust is the formation of iron oxide on an iron or steel substrate. It can range in color from red to black and be loose, porous or highly adherent.
The oxide that forms on stainless steels is mainly a Cr oxide layer which is very thin, adherent and has dielectric properties. This limits diffusion of corrosive species to the metal substrate (barrier formation). It also limits electron transfer (current flow) which shuts down electrochemical corrosion mechanisms.

It usually take at least 11 percent Cr to result in a significant Cr oxide layer being formed.

Hope this helps, Walt
 
You caught me this time, Walt! I was so confident I was right I was mentally composing a reply suggesting I should deliberately post something wrong and tell you in email so you can post a rebuttal and be right for once while I was looking it up just to make sure, and then I saw I screwed up!

That website is also wrong about a detail, though. According to the dictionary (Webster's Third International) rust is ferric oxide (Fe2O3) and bluing/patina is ferrous oxide (FeO) so I was right about patina having had its lust for oxygen partially sated -- I'm glad of that; it saves a good metaphor.
smile.gif


I hate to think how many times I've posted that error about which is ferric and which is ferrous, though. Who knows how long I would have gone on making a fool of myself if you hadn't corrected me -- thanks!

-Cougar Allen :{)


[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 20 November 1999).]
 
Well, Coug, I have a confession to make. I myself have made the same mistake for years. I think it is the Fe2 part which confuses me; I think Fe +2 = ferrous.

This rust business is actually more complicated than I indicated. For a good discussion of this, see: http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File9.htm#FERROUS METAL

They give this formula for rust:

ferrous ion Fe - 2e Fe+2

ferrous hydroxide Fe+2+ 2OH- Fe(OH)2

hydrated ferric hydroxide (red-brown rust) 4Fe(OH)2 + O2 2H2O + 2Fe2O3 H2O

So, your statement that rust was ferric oxide was partially right. It is usually a mixture of ferric oxide and ferric hydroxide. Which is exactly the definition given in my Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary (my dictionary lifts its' leg on your dictionary)
wink.gif


Ferrous oxide is FeO, incorrectly designated Fe302 in the Rust Primer.

Thanking you for your gracious reply, I remain, respectfully yours, Walt
 
For the chromium oxide layer in stainless steels to work evidently oxygen needs to be present to keep the layer replenished. It's not as durable as the oxide layer that forms on aluminum, which offers a similar type of protection.


 
Many thanks to everyone who posted here. Thanks to D. Epstein for asking this question. I especially want to thank cougar allen for his fine sense of knife aesthetics. The accelerated aging tip is fantastic! I thought about doing that, but scared myself away from the experiment. Many thanks also to Dr. Welch for the chemistry refresher. We old alchemists sometimes forget the basics, getting lost in our ruminations and incantations. Thanks also to Cal for reminding me that other people also think that the personal history a well-used knife displays can be considered an Improvement and not a defect. I wrote a reponse in the 'To Use or Not to Use' thread yesterday outlining my feelings about personal history 'marks'. Its nice to see that some other folks feel the same way.

Paracelsus
 
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