Now I'm not sure what a "hard use" folding knife is...

C

cutitout

Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
135
I recently purchased a Grayman Satu, by anyones definition (even the knife makers) a hard use knife for sure. But I recently saw a post about CRK Sebenza's which are considered a premium folder not being hard use knives because the warranty would be void if the end user flicked it hard repeatedly. Here is the thread; http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/998088-Chris-Reeve-s-no-flick-policy So okay, I get that you can abuse a knife by using it beyond it's intended use and design function.

My Satu is a 10+ ounce chunk of steel and titanium but by scale it is no different than the Large Sebenza. Both use (or used) S30V Steel blade stock against a Titanium lock bar and while the Seb is smaller, by scale it is about the same as the Satu when you compare the size of the blade to the size of the lock bar, so by extrapolating, it seems to me that if you flick the Satu, it should do the same damage as flicking a Sebenza and subsequently void any warranty to replace a damaged lock bar or blade stop. I don't suppose you can exactly call a large Sebenza a hard use knife, but at about $400 a copy, it should be able to stand up to a whole bunch of flicking and hard cutting just like the Satu at about the same price.

So again, I guess what I am asking is what makes a folding knife a hard use knife? Does it need to use all steel components? Is it determined by size and if so where do you draw the line? Does hard use apply only to the opening and closing use? I think the titanium is a soft metal used for it's corrosion resistance and weight but would it's use exclude a knife from being a hard use knife?

There are some things that are obvious like hammering a blade into a tree and hitting it from the side with a sledge hammer to break the blade. I am exaggerating to make a point but where do you draw the line for what a hard use knife can do without voiding a warranty?

Probably a bit academic, but seems worth some conversation for a knife forum. Any thoughts?
 
I saw that post about the "no flicking" policy that Chris Reeves has. I think that is insane! If I am going to shell out $400 and up on a folding knife I expect to be able to use it to it's fullest and not have to worry about opening it too hard or too much for fear of voiding warranty. How do you like the SATU? I have been drooling over one of those and a DUA for quite some time now. I think I'll pick them up in the spring. They look like tanks!
 
The phrase "hard use" is pretty subjective. In many respects, a Spyderco Gayle Bradley at $160, and built very solid, is a hard use knife in that its the kind of knife that you might use when gutting and rehabbing a bathroom. But the Kershaw Half Ton, which Nutnfancy reviewed today and costs $13 or so, might also be considered a hard use knife because you can beat it to death and get your $13 out if it.

In my view, knives are meant to cut and slice. Much beyond that and it starts getting into hard use territory. My 82 year old dad will scrape grass off his mower blade with his traditional folder, and thats something I would never do - so to me thats almost hard use, though not in the traditional sense of hard use meaning abuse.

But really, the term is just so subjective that there is a sliding scale of what really constitutes hard use - from my dad and his lawnmower blade to batoning a folder or prying a trunk open. Its just such a broad terms that its almost meaningless.

Since I don't use folders for anything but slicing, to me everything beyond that starts getting into hard use.

IMG_0300.jpg

Is cutting sod a "hard use"? Probably, as you are hitting rocks and roots, but its well within the capabilities of this Cold Steel Lawman.
 
Let's try this no-flicking policy on for size one more time. :)

Chris Reeve is asking your question: what makes a hard use knife? The answer is pretty obvious, it is a well-made knife, of good materials, ergonomic handle, with blade geometry designed for the kind of cutting the user expects. This could lean toward slicing or chopping.

Abusing a knife is using it for tasks it was not designed to perform. A longer, thicker blade will chop, a thinner blade will slice, a ceramic blade will chip. :p
Carelessly dropping a knife onto a hard surface, foolishly throwing a knife with a hard heat treat treat into a tree, is abuse. Flicking means different things to different people. Deploying the blade by "flicking" it out by the thumbstud is the right way to do it. "Flicking" it out with a roll of the wrist at the same time is no problem, either. But gripping the knife firmly and whipping it around at arm's length in a rapid arc will slam the tang into the stop pin. Doing it repeatedly will stress the metal and can lead to unnecessary damage. Why would you want to do that?
 
When I baton with my SAK, I consider it hard use:-)

Honestly, I've come to view most of the talk of "hard use" on the forums, as Internet fantasy, and boys playing with their knives. Sorry if this offends anyone. Just my opinion. You're free to your own.
 
Does anyone really flick their knife open with an arm motion that looks like you are trying to throw a frisbee 80 yards? That could be dangerous. :)
 
I don't think about warranty once I've used it very hard. Have to take responsibility for that. If it doesn't live up to expectations short and long term, then it's just another knife to avoid like many. We know when we are rough on things.

I think it is another thing that is getting complicated. I expect a more expensive knife to be more "fancy" but not any tougher...cool features and nice, trendy look but not necessarily more durability and capability than the linerlocks and framelocks from 10-20 years ago. Each decade maybe handful of new features that actually enhance use but bunches that only enhance aesthetic and hype...cranking out model after model that performs the same as a 90's Endura if you are lucky.
 
There are some folks who sit in front of the tv flicking their knives repeatedly, but IMO, I bet they are single. My wife would shoot me if I did that over and over, and it would drive most people nuts. Constant flicking is for mall ninjas or for guys that just stopped smoking, or have restless leg syndrome. That just isn't what a knife is generally designed for. Batoning with a folder, IMO, is ignorant; buy a hatchet, a fixed blade and a prybar if you want to do that.

Overly-hard use is like you see on the ZT YouTube videos, where a guy screws two boards together and then pries them and cuts them apart with his ZT 0300 or whatever. Not too many folders are designed to take that kind of abuse...and that's what it is. Legitimate hard-use is digging up your garden weeds. Or chopping through 1-2" wooden branches to build yourself a leanto shelter in the woods. If you work in a stock room and have to cut zip ties and cardboard boxes all day long...that is hard use. A knife is designed to cut, and anything wildly beyond that is considered hard use.

That are many different opinions on this, so I'm not trying to start fires. .
Sonnydaze
 
I love my Satu, it's one of if not my favorite folder. I don't really use it hard, but I am EDC'ing it currently and it really satisfies my needs.

146560670.jpg
146560815.jpg
 
Last edited:
Esav Benyamin said:
But gripping the knife firmly and whipping it around at arm's length in a rapid arc will slam the tang into the stop pin. Doing it repeatedly will stress the metal and can lead to unnecessary damage. Why would you want to do that?
Click to expand...


Because they think it looks cool I guess.... :rolleyes:
 
I'm sure that we all have our own definition as to what we feel a "hard use" folder is. To me a 'hard use" folder is any knife that I'm willing to use (and at times "maybe" even misuse) on any material, doing any job, without regard to what it may or may not do to said knife. To be perfectly honest, I'm sure that many of my folders could handle just about anything I threw at them but I don't use ALL of my knives hard because I paid a lot (to me) for them and would like to keep them in decent condition.

Two folders that have proved to me to be able to handle just about any tough job (and I show them no mercy) are my Ontario Hossom Retribution 1 and my Spyderco Manix C95...I've used both of these knives as if they were $20 folders yet they've always come through for me without fail. I didn't mind using either of these because for one neither knife was THAT expensive and I have a new backups of both knives still in their boxes. :D

The ONLY over $400 folder that I've ever used with reckless abandon (recently tearing down and rebuilding a family members storage barn) was my couple month old Strider SMF w/CPM-154 and the ONLY reason I was willing to use it was that I was assured that IF it broke that it would be fixed by Strider...plus I was dying to put one of my better folders to the test. The SMF held up perfectly fine no matter what I threw at it and it really did impressed me...I'm sure that some of my other better folders would have held up too.

During my youth I recall seeing my father break the tip off of SO many Barlow's while using the tip of the blade to pry open a paint can or using it as a screw driver so there are SOME things that I just know better than to use my knife for...unless it was a thick Tanto blade.
 
cutitout said:
I recently purchased a Grayman Satu, by anyones definition (even the knife makers) a hard use knife for sure. But I recently saw a post about CRK Sebenza's which are considered a premium folder not being hard use knives because the warranty would be void if the end user flicked it hard repeatedly. Here is the thread; http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/998088-Chris-Reeve-s-no-flick-policy So okay, I get that you can abuse a knife by using it beyond it's intended use and design function.

My Satu is a 10+ ounce chunk of steel and titanium but by scale it is no different than the Large Sebenza. Both use (or used) S30V Steel blade stock against a Titanium lock bar and while the Seb is smaller, by scale it is about the same as the Satu when you compare the size of the blade to the size of the lock bar, so by extrapolating, it seems to me that if you flick the Satu, it should do the same damage as flicking a Sebenza and subsequently void any warranty to replace a damaged lock bar or blade stop. I don't suppose you can exactly call a large Sebenza a hard use knife, but at about $400 a copy, it should be able to stand up to a whole bunch of flicking and hard cutting just like the Satu at about the same price.

So again, I guess what I am asking is what makes a folding knife a hard use knife? Does it need to use all steel components? Is it determined by size and if so where do you draw the line? Does hard use apply only to the opening and closing use? I think the titanium is a soft metal used for it's corrosion resistance and weight but would it's use exclude a knife from being a hard use knife?

There are some things that are obvious like hammering a blade into a tree and hitting it from the side with a sledge hammer to break the blade. I am exaggerating to make a point but where do you draw the line for what a hard use knife can do without voiding a warranty?

Probably a bit academic, but seems worth some conversation for a knife forum. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...


Sitting around flicking a knife open hundreds or thousands of times a day can and will put a lot of wear and tear on the knife causing it to wear out way before it's time.

Here is something I posted in that other thread, look at those numbers and that 8,000 didn't even dent the knife that CRK used in the video...

8000 openings is about 22 a day for a year.... That's 365 days and using that knife everyday..

About 11 a day for 2 years.....

About 7 a day for 3 years....

About 5 a day for 4 years....

About 4 a day for 5 years.....

About 3.6 a day for 6 years...

About 3 a day for 7 years....

About 2.7 a day for 8 years....

About 2.5 a day for 9 years...

About 2 a day for 10 years...





Now looking at these numbers think about how much abuse those locks must be seeing..... In a short period of time....
Click to expand...
 
Never been able to afford the expensive stuff but maybe hard use can be defined as a function of edge retention and what I'd like to call engineering equity.
The engineering equity and edge retention of the ZT knives seems exceptional and if its anything like the (budget) Kershaws I own, I an already impressed. The edge retention of the 8Cr13MoV is not exceptional. But the engineering equity of my budget Kershaws blows me away. It has seriously messed with my expectations of a folder.

I am also of the opinion that using a knife for anything other than cutting in anything other than a seriously time-strapped situation qualifies as abuse. Why would you pry with a knife? Or dig with one?
 
I think of something like the Benchmade Adamas as a hard use folder. You can use it for hard cutting tasks and non cutting tasks as well. Basically, a hard use folder is a folder that can do most things a fixed blade of the same size can do without you having to change your technique to do them.

I EDC a Benchmade Contego and consider it to be "hard use" as well. I mostly slice apples, open packages etc... with my EDC but I used my Contego to start a fire yesterday and it worked wonderfully. I used it just as a would a small fixed blade to split up small pieces of wood, make feather sticks, and used it to strike the flint. Sometimes when I make a feather stick and want bigger curls I take really deep, powerful cuts into the wood and at the end I apply lateral pressure to blade in conjunction with the downward cutting force to snap off the chunk of wood. Lateral stress like this will cause certain locks to fail or thinner knives to possibly break. I enjoy the versatility of having a "hard use folder", Its really just like carrying a fixed blade but takes up less space in your pocket. Some tasks require alot of pressure to be applied to the lock and blade.
 
A hard use folder is one that can take the place of a Fixed Blade in certain situations should for some reason a fixed blade can't be carried.

They aren't a permanent replacement for a fixed blade though as over time they will suffer damage and need to be tuned or fixed in some way.

The downsides are they are on the heavy side, bulky and don't cut as well as folders with thinner ground blades, but it's a trade off.
 
The old stock phrase used to be "warrantied against defects in materials and workmanship" but with some people you have to be a bit more clear and point out that there are limits to the kind of damage that the manufacturer is going to fix for free. A different warranty doesn't change the capabilities of the knife, it just allows the manufacturer to manage costs. Do we really want a $400 knife to become a $500 knife so that some users can indulge themselves?
I think the question isn't what constitutes a hard use folding knife, but rather is there a warranty that covers a knife regardless of how it is used?
I'm not aware of a folding knife with an unconditional warranty but perhaps there is a maker that offers one, and it seems that would be your "hard use" knife.
 
I'll tell you about a "hard use" knife. Some years ago, I bought an A.G.Russell Fruit Testing Knife and I keep it in the kitchen. Seeing cutitout's Satu with that apple reminded me of it.

It is a slipjoint with a 4.25" ATS-34 blade. Very thin and light weight overall. I slice up fruit, salad, bread, cheese, meat, chicken, and fish with it. I open cardboard and plastic food packages with it. It has never cut me or failed me. I rinse it between uses and wash & dry it before putting it back on the shelf. A couple of times a year I remember I could sharpen it.

An excellent knife properly used will outperform any hype. :D
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I'll tell you about a "hard use" knife. Some years ago, I bought an A.G.Russell Fruit Testing Knife and I keep it in the kitchen. Seeing cutitout's Satu with that apple reminded me of it.

It is a slipjoint with a 4.25" ATS-34 blade. Very thin and light weight overall. I slice up fruit, salad, bread, cheese, meat, chicken, and fish with it. I open cardboard and plastic food packages with it. It has never cut me or failed me. I rinse it between uses and wash & dry it before putting it back on the shelf. A couple of times a year I remember I could sharpen it.

An excellent knife properly used will outperform any hype. :D
Click to expand...


Makes me think of the main knife I use in the kitchen daily, a Phil Wilson Custom in CPM S110V that I might have to touch up maybe 2 times a year, it's nice and thin, slightly over 4" blade.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I'll tell you about a "hard use" knife. Some years ago, I bought an A.G.Russell Fruit Testing Knife and I keep it in the kitchen. Seeing cutitout's Satu with that apple reminded me of it.

It is a slipjoint with a 4.25" ATS-34 blade. Very thin and light weight overall. I slice up fruit, salad, bread, cheese, meat, chicken, and fish with it. I open cardboard and plastic food packages with it. It has never cut me or failed me. I rinse it between uses and wash & dry it before putting it back on the shelf. A couple of times a year I remember I could sharpen it.

An excellent knife properly used will outperform any hype. :D
Click to expand...


I have the same knife and EVERY time I see an argument on which type of lock is best I always think of that slipjoint that my wife and I both use all the time and neither of us has ever had it close on us. If you use your knife properly the lock really shouldn't be an issue.
 
I have no objection to overdoing the knife act. KLJTech mentioned the Ontario Hossom Retribution 1.

I can see taking mine into the woods, chopping off low-hanging limbs, prepping fire materials, digging a hole in the ground to bury the fire. And sharpening it when I got home. That knife was not built for finesse. It is a multitool.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top