O.T. Another gun thread.

Yvsa

Yvsa

Joined
May 18, 1999
Messages
15,395
Just have a question.:D Does anyone of reputable manufacture make a .45 that's small enough to be concealed in a large fat man's front pocket?
I realize that if so it will probably have reduced capacity, but 8 rounds ought to be enough if you can stay calm enough and aim shouldn't it?
If not what might be a .45 that is small enough to be concealable on your person instead of off body?

I'm really beginning to consider this round as the way I might ought to go instead of a smaller faster round.
I like the idea of being able too knock someone down with a shot to the shoulder or the like or am I misunderstanding what a .45 will do?
 
What do you mean, 'pocket'? Shirt pocket? Coat pocket? Jeans Pocket? Slacks pocket?

They have a whole bunch of neat short 45's now, Yvsa.




munk
 
Yvsa said:
(SNIP)

I'm really beginning to consider this round as the way I might ought to go instead of a smaller faster round.
I like the idea of being able too knock someone down with a shot to the shoulder or the like or am I misunderstanding what a .45 will do?
Click to expand...

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, When we talk about knock down power, we are talking about doing enough damage that when we shoot something they go down. You remember that thing about every action has an equal and opposite reaction? That is applicable in this case. If it was able to knock down a grown man from a non fatal hit, then what would that mean to your arm? I'm 275lbs and 6ft tall (fat too), if that bullet had the energy to knowck me down, what would it do to your 30lb arm and pistol?

No man portable repeating weapon is a certain one shot stop. (yeah I don't mean RPG's), all we can do is increase the likelyhood that someone once shot will either be deterred by the damage done to him, or be hit badly enough that he won't be able to continue the attack.

A 230 grain bullet traveling at 800FPS penetrates because it's energy is focused on a narrow front. The same energy behind a baseball bat would likely be painful, but not devastating.

That is why the pros and teachers tell you to hit until you can't hit anymore or your target is disabled. Shoot until they aren't coming anymore.

Some here will disagree, but I am serious. When you carry a gun you have to make the decision that you are willing to kill to prevent that or worse from happening to you or yours. If you don't want to make that decision, carry mace, tazers, cell phones and baseball bats. IF you are carrying a weapon designed to kill, you may just fulfill it's design one terrible day.



That's all I'm gonna say about it too.
 
Munk said:
What do you mean, 'pocket'? Shirt pocket? Coat pocket? Jeans Pocket? Slacks pocket?

They have a whole bunch of neat short 45's now, Yvsa.

munk
Click to expand...
Sorry, I should have clarified that more. I meant front pants pocket, but a coat or jacket pocket would also be applicable in some instances although rare.
I seldom wear a coat unless it's below 32* and then I usually just take on along instead of wearing it. The only time I wear a coat or jacket is if I'm going to be spending quite some time outside.
Also IWB might be applicable if I can put one on my side, could never get it out from under my gut in time if I tried to carry there.:D ;)

45-70 said:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, When we talk about knock down power, we are talking about doing enough damage that when we shoot something they go down.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about when the US Army went too the .45 when the .38 failed to stop the Moro Warriors. The .45 would at least stop them from coming up and cutting off your head after they were dead and didn't know it.

45-70 said:
Some here will disagree, but I am serious. When you carry a gun you have to make the decision that you are willing to kill to prevent that or worse from happening to you or yours.
IF you are carrying a weapon designed to kill, you may just fulfill it's design one terrible day.
Click to expand...
45-70, this is Yvsa you are talking to remember?:rolleyes: :grumpy:


45-70 said:
That's all I'm gonna say about it too.
Click to expand...
Good.:p ;)
 
The advantage of a more powerful pistol cartridge as regards stopping power is that with a more powerful load, you have a much better chance of penetrating enough to hit the central nervous system, or cause enough shock and soft tissue damage to cause major blood loss suddenly. Only a direct shot to the control system (brain/spine) will stop someone immediately. Shot placement is critical, but in any case, a bigger bullet is generally more effective than a smaller one given equal velocities.

If you want a good powerful cartridge in a pocket sized package, look at the Kahr line of pistols. I don't think they have a .45 yet, but they do make a tiny .40 S&W and a +P+ rated pocket 9mm and are known to be pretty reliable (sort of Glockish).

John
 
There are quite a few fairly small framed .45s out there. The first one to come to mind in that regard was the discontinued AMT Backup in .45, a darn nice belly banger, if you don't mind the 96 lb, long, stiff, creepy trigger pull.

Then there's the Glock 30 ( a slightly bulkier, but much better choice) (my 275 lb father carries a larger frame Glock 23 in his front pocket with no worry)

Then in the 1911 style there's the Kimber Ultra Carry, Para Ordnance P-10/ Warthog, and the Springfield Ultra Compact 1911. These are all in the $600-$800 range. There's quite a few more of this style, but I'm assuming you don't want to drop $1200-infinity on the gun.

In regards to understanding the potential of the .45, I would not rely on it to do anything more than any other handgun round. a shoulder hit is a shoulder hit for the most part, and the immediate circumstances and the attackers physique and mindset are gonna play a much more significant role than a few millimeters more or less on the diameter of your chosen projectile.

There have been cops killed by shoulder wounds recieved from a .25 ACP, and there have been attackers fatally shot in the heart or lungs that still managed to kill a chosen victim before croaking off.

That being said, I do like the .45 ACP marginally better than most self defense rounds, but to me caliber is one of the least things I consider (within realistic parameters of course) Reliability, ergonomics, and sights tend to be the most immediate priorities with caliber far behind. I myself carry a .45 ACP, but only because it's the handgun I own that I shoot best.

To speak very plainly, and perhaps controversially, I wouldn't sweat the search for the .45 There are alot of other guns out there that carry more nicely, function more simply (and reliably) and cost a heckuva lot less. a well placed shot is what will count, and there's only one kind of dead. (neutralized for the PC among us)

And let us not forget the first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun- get something that you know will not become an inconvenience in your day to day life. Make sure it's reliable, make sure you can hit with it, oh yeah, then consider the ammunition.

to give an offhand recommendation, I'd consider a S&W J-Frame revolver. If you want something light, theres the 14 oz or so .38 specials. if you want more horsepower there's the .357, weighing in at ten ounces more.

If you really want an auto, I'd still consider a 9mm or .40, for the sheer practical fact they fit on a smaller easier to live with frame.

I hope I've given ya' food for thought if nuthin' else. (I'll get over it if you think I'm full of feces too) :D
 
Thanks guys.:) I was considering the .40 but lately have been wondering if the .45 might just be a better caliber for me.
I had once pretty much made up my mind to go with a .357 Mag hammerless revolver and I have looked at a couple. One with a concealed yet operable hammer and one with DA only.
I know that in reality that it often takes more than one shot and if things ever got to the point where I would have to pull my gun then I'm sure I would fire it until any threat was over, that's been ingrained into me all my life and I've ingrained it into Barb.
The smaller calibers may be just fine and I do know that shot placement is what counts when the chips are down.
I just had an email comparing the Mak to a .380 and with the right ammo the .380 is supposed to be effective. For the difference in size and cost of ammo I would maybe opt for the Mak if I were to go that way just because of the cost of the ammo.
I'd like too be able to practice at least a couple of times a month. I'm where I can go a short distance and practice whenever I want, a real plus for me no matter what caliber, hell I could go every week or more often if I wanted.
And hell with the cost of Mak ammo and being able to shoot a lot that may be my best bet, haven't ruled anything out yet.
Just like the idea of a big ol' honkin .45 for some reason.:D :cool: :rolleyes: ;)
 
The first handgun I buy will probably be a concealed carry. I've been leaning back and forth between calibres. Still not sure. Oh, well, I've got a while to think. :D

Nam
 
For me, it's a Glock 30 most of the time. If I'm wearing shorts and a tee shirt (or less), a KT P3AT is indespensable. I can literally palm this pistol if I must.

Some frown upon the .380. The P3AT is so small and light that carrying it is never really an inconveniance. (Unless one is naked, that is, but that brings up other problems.) Therefore, one is more inclined to carry it. A .380 is better than nothing at all. With a proper pocket holster, it prints like a wallet.

The Glock is quite small, yet still has a wide enough grip to make it controllable. The overall size of the grip is small enough that I can't hold it properly without a magazine installed - not an issue, when you think about it. It's low maintenance and quite accurate to boot, and no one's going to argue with ten 230 gr. projectiles of your choice.

The Glock's trigger pull and safety features take some getting used to, and I've never been a fan of plastic sights. Other than that, though...something to consider.

The Kel-Tec gets the nod for price. I still haven't figured out just how they manage to sell them for so little.
 
If you really want little there are .45 LC/.410 shotgun derringers out there but I think that a small Springfield arms or Kimber arms auto would be a better choice.
 
Yvsa
If you go with a .45, I suggest carrying a full size quality 1911 (5 inch barrel) in a IWB holster (on your hip). I do and have no problems. Carry it cocked and locked with a Wilson 47D eight round mag with Federal 230 gr hardball. (I know all the arguments for hollow points but there are reliability, tactical, ballistic, and legal reasons not to do so)

The 1911 was designed to function properly with a 5 inch barrel. As the barrel shortens, reliability tends to be more of an issue. The difference in concealability between a 4 inch and 5 inch barrel is not enough to warrant the timing issues that become more critical. Never, ever sacrifice reliability for anything!

Whatever you decide, just be sure to carry the gun with you always!

Semp
 
Semper Fi said:
Never, ever sacrifice reliability for anything!
Whatever you decide, just be sure to carry the gun with you always!
Click to expand...

Got to agree with my Bro on these points in particular...but would also like to add that a number of small caliber rounds to the face has been proven an effective attention getter. Some mighty fine handguns literally small enough to conceal in a shirt pocket are available and likely to fit the accurate, reliable and *with you* bill...

.
 
isnt there a detonics 45 auto thats pretty damn small?
here it is, the Detonics Combat master.
combatmaster_lg.gif
 
(In order of cost, lowest to highest. The Patriot is no longer in production, and the Kahr isn't there yet.)

Republic Arms Patriot .45

Glock 36 (compare hand grip sizes with those who suggest a 30 or 36- a 30 is too fat for good control in MY hand; 30= double-stack, 36=single)

Kahr .45.

Detonics will be expensive and hard to find. AMT Backup has an incredibly awful trigger...honestly, Uncle, with good modern ammo, something like a Kahr P9 would (I feel) serve you well. Carry a reload, and shoot until the threat(s)...ain't.

John
 
Wow! Just saw the picture of that Detonics. my right hand hurts just looking at it! I'd be afraid that one would make the hammer bite of a Walther PPK or a Hi-Power look downright merciful!

It is quite..interesting though. I'm intrigued by the slide design and the extra short trigger. Makes it kinda look like it'd be well suited to widdle hands. Probably one of the few out of the box guns that would fit my wifes tiny forepaws without a problem.

Can't go wrong with Officer Tackleberry's brand of choice though... :D
 
Runs With Scissors said:
Wow! Just saw the picture of that Detonics. my right hand hurts just looking at it! I'd be afraid that one would make the hammer bite of a Walther PPK or a Hi-Power look downright merciful!

It is quite..interesting though. I'm intrigued by the slide design and the extra short trigger. Makes it kinda look like it'd be well suited to widdle hands. Probably one of the few out of the box guns that would fit my wifes tiny forepaws without a problem.
Click to expand...

Actually I owned one years back but mine was blue steel and it shot well, no hammer bite worked really well with Winchester 185 Silvertips shot pretty tight groups for a 3 inch barrel till it was stolen, and they are in the process of startin to make them again, here is the website http://www.detonicsusa.com/combatmaster.html

James
 
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