O.T. Just Punishment For Abusers Of Iraqi Prisoners...

Drdan

Drdan

Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
1,390
Recent news reports suggest that coverage of the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. and British troops has led to an increase in violence against U.S. and allied military members... Is just punishment merely the loss of one's rank, or loss of a job in the military for those found guilty? I don't feel that the U.S. condones mistreatment of its prisoners, but many persons want what they deem a more fitting punishment to be applied. What do some of HI's forumites feel is fitting punishment for those found guilty of gross misconduct?

Thanks for your input!

Dan :)
 
A dishonorable discharge and 5-10 yrs. What I really hope is that all those involved are tried and punished, not just a few scapegoats. I have a hard time believing that these people were doing all of this without at least tacit approval from someone higher up. In the end, however, it's not really my position to judge since I wasn't there. I hope they get a fair trial.
 
I'd say that if the troops were mistreating the prisoners, then they should face punishment commensurate with their deeds. Incarceration and, possibly, execution wouldn't be out of line for people who have committed attrocities. Of course, not being there and not being shot at every day from people who intentionally blend in with the throngs of innocents, it's super easy for me to make such judgements.

What should be done is we send our troops back to every country from whence they came and release the Kraken from that "Clash of the Titans"* movie




*thanks to Marc MacYoung for refreshing my memory of my favorite childhood movie.
 
Rules regarding POWs were to assure unilateral appropriate treatment of those prisoners. We must adhere to those standards in the interest of our own troops currently POW as well as those taken in the future. Nothing less is acceptable.
 
These prisoners are "The Enemy" right?

The military is supposed to kill The Enemy. U.S. soldiers die trying to kill or blow these guys up.

But, now that they are inside a prison building it's against the law to hurt or humiliate them? Doesn't make sense to me.

If the object of capturing prisoners is to extract information, then that's what should be done, by whatever means works. Then they should be killed.

Otherwise - "Take No Prisoners"
 
Ben Arown-Awile said:
If the object of capturing prisoners is to extract information, then that's what should be done, by whatever means works. Then they should be killed.

Otherwise - "Take No Prisoners"
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
No Ben...these prisoners *were* the enemy. Now they are just prisoners.

If the object of capturing prisoners is to extract information, then that's what should be done, by whatever means works. Then they should be killed.
Click to expand...

Would you support their doing the same to our POWs?
 
I want the people up a couple layers to take responsibility. The gal we've seen in the photo's may have been ordered to do what she did. Make it right? NO- but try walking a mile in her shoes. I think army intelligence did a lot of this- psy opps. They became out of control. I tell you what though- if putting a leash on a prisoner and humiliating him would reveal secrets that would save thousands or millions of lives later I'd do it. What is disturbing is murder, torture, or rape.

As for the US- does anyone think the Iraqis treated our POW"s according to the conventions? Of course not- they are taking civilian hostages now. What does this mean, does this mean I'm excusing what has happened? Of course not. Punish those responsible. But the World and our enemies are using this to blow perspective of the situation off the map. With their over emphasis of these incidents, we are the 'invaders, imperialists, rapers and murderers and Saddam just a hell of a busineesman.

Get focused on isloated prisoner abuse is to loose perspective. But we live in Bizarro world, where up is down and good is bad.

Let's give Saddam a nuclear bomb and put him back in power. And pay war reparations to him. That would be fair. Let's restart the Oil for Food program- so France can get rich and Saddam can starve his people. That would be fair. Let's resume the ridiculous game of weapons inspections- so that some day, some how, a payload is delivered to London or NY or Boise, because even without WMD we know Saddam's track record and we know the post 9-11 world would favor him exploiting it. Yes, we have egg on our faces, both for the absence of WMD and prisoner abuse. But who wants to take a chance on Saddam after 9-11?

WE've had people crying "see, this is a failure" since it began. With their vision you wouldn't know how many millions in Iraqis now have a chance for a future, how many women can lead lives with freedom, that Lybia surrendered its nuclear materials, and that terrorism is on the run. All you know is that a few US troops abused prisoners and that no WMD were found.


munk
 
Not all forumites share your enthusiasm. I've been meaning to tell you I like your atavar. It is the first one I've seen that gives me some ideas...

I like Kismet's real well too. Enjoy every sandwich indeed.

I think in Today's world, or any world, being a leader and taking responsibility- as we did with the War on Terror- means you get the bad press and the insults. People not able to act, like intellectuals, often mock those who do and will.





munk
 
Oh- Drdan-
You say News reports are suggesting the violence in Iraq has increased since the news of prisoner abuse is out. Has it? Certainly liberal and socialist news sources have a vested interest in making that connection, but the violence right before the report came out was at an all time high. How has it increased?

THe expectation of this reaction- increased violence- is carte blanche to any character wanting to act out. The world is sympathetic you see- we abused prisoners, didn't find WMD, expect more violence, so who could blame him?

A good example of how news coverage shapes actions.

A lot of coverage assists our enemies. We hear more clap trap about Rumsfeld resigning than we do about Lybia surrendering nuclear materials, or the UN eyeball deep in corruption and pay offs from Saddam.

I've been called Right Wing. That's wrong. I'm basically a Libertarian. I'm forced to vote Republican because in the historic cycles of corruption and general wrong-headedness the Democrats are at a high point. If you took a John Kennedy Democrat today I might be for him.

This is World War Three. Blair and Bush have it right.


munk
 
heehee.

I gotsta side with Nasty on this one. once you're a non-combatant, the battlefield rules don't apply.

That chick in the pics looks pretty happy with her job, smilin and pointing at these guys like they're animals in a zoo. Too happy to do that, if you ask me. Not too bright either, If ya ask me--who takes their own photo evidence for their court marshal?

I have a buddy who is 1st Marine Exp, and he did snatch-n-grabs and door kicking in a number of Iraqi cities, and detained others for questioning. He mentioned war atrocities committed by the Brits in Basrah, but he and his unit know nothing of US doing this when he was there. Capture, detain, and deliver, that was his job. If he could do that without using more force than necessary, I think the other mil folks should toe the line too or pay.

For perspective: before the Information age, Atilla could kill 100s of thou folks without reprisal, the Nazis could have their rapists play in the "Joy Division" (female prisoners kept for sex then eventually killed) and it would be _years_ before anyone was the wiser. IIRC, they at least tried to try some of the ringleaders of the camps for such abuses. The Japanese raped and killed women and childeren in Nanjing, but were not made to pay because the news wasn't out fast enuf (and WWII was warming up anyway).

Rather than concentrate on the 'ones that got away' lets get the ones we can when we can, like we did with the Bastid of Kosovo. We must stand up and make a bid for humanity and human rights. We cannot assume that all Iraqis are dyed-in-the-wool killers (tempting as it may seem), or that all US mil folks are rapists and abusers. (obviously, the soldier who turned this stuff in agrees with me, and is a moral and just soldier)

I dunno about you, but the US folks responsible are sickos, and I wouldn't want them back in the US walking the streets eyeing my little girl fer their next game, thinking that it was okay to do what they did. War has made some of by best friends/family into sanctioned killers for a time, and they have enuf trouble living that down and getting thru. The folks who did this are without remorse, and should be punished without remorse.

Justice is blind.

Keith
 
After 11 years working on psych wards I've seen what 'normal' people can do- and that includes Ferrous, and me, and everyone here in HI.

Mark Furhman used the N word- but was he a racist? He was an idiot playing a role on tape. Or maybe he was a racist for those moments. These guards need to be punished, sure, but I find it remarkable you have no compassion for them.

You probably have more compassion for drug dealers and users sent to prison. We're told they need treatment- don't these folks need the same?

I've seen what bureacracies do to people. I've seen top administrators lie to Federal investigators. I've seen charts hidden. I've seen lies that are referred to as 'documentation'.

Making a scape goat of the few on the floor of this prison will not correct the one's above who encouraged it, perhaps ordered it.

People and societies find scapegoats so they don't have to look too hard at themselves.




munk
 
precisely. If they really didn't want to put spin on it, we woud've never known. What the Brits did in Basrah will never come to the surface, because there's nothing to be gained by exposing their brutality.

Munk, I agree abt looking up the chain of command a bit. And I think they will, after they hear the testimony of the folks they did get.

Kinda reminds me of the level of 'acceptable violence' in sports, namely hockey. About a month or 2 back, a guy got paralyzed by another player, and who's to blame? That hockey player (he was really sorry, obviously) who delivered the hit was doing what he learned to do, or what he could get away with by observing the level of acceptable violence. Is it the players, coaches, team owners, refs, or the fans that should be punished?

Keith
 
Agreed. Dave K said it.

I think that gal is going to get ripped apart- and reality be hanged.





munk
 
munk...I didn't say nor did I imply that I have no compassion for the troops involved in these actions. I expect that a full psych eval will be conducted as part of the investigation and if such demonstrates that they were not able to judge right from wrong, I'd also expect that they would be treated accordingly. If, however, they were competent to make those judgements, they had both a moral responsibility and a sworn duty to disobey orders to be cruel to prisoners. No soldier is to blindly follow orders...they are responsible for their own actions. This has been documented many times in military history.
 
Munk... It's difficult to determine the veracity of the media's allegations that militiamen loyal to al-Sadr were offered renumeration for capturing or killing allied troops in direct response to our alleged treatment of Iraqi prisoners. It does seem obvious that the news coverage has caused ire in the Arab world, including that part of it called Iraq. If some individuals who previously were not compelled to take up arms do so now because of the coverage, propoganda or otherwise, more of our soldiers will be placed in harm's way.

I'm not debating whether or not it is right for us to be in Iraq, the failure to find weapons of mass destruction, how Iraqi's treated POW's, or suggesting that Mr. Hussein be given thermonuclear weapons and be put back in power...

Being that the actions of a few guards and their keepers might exacerbate the situation for some allied soldiers in Iraq, I was interested in knowing if loss of rank or being booted out of the military was fitting, or if more severe disciplinary actions were in order. I personally feel that after a fair trial, jail time might be in order. The higher ups should also be held responsible; I don't just want a few scapegoats to be punished.

The incidents are truly unfortunate, and just complicate the difficult job our troops have in getting Iraq stable enough to become governable by the Iraqis themselves.

Dan :)
 
There are circumstances that throw easy distinctions out the window. I'm reminded of the people who did nothing while a woman was attacked and killed near some apartments in NY. Crowd and group psychology is interesting stuff. I still want to know about murders and rapes, or any torture. I don't care that much about leashes. Punish them sure- but I wouldn't send the gal to prison for a leash. I want the ones on top, and I want to know why prisoners were killed, and who did it.

Rumsfeld did not fly to Iraq by night and torture those prisoners.

munk
 
Reality check;

We live in a world where prisoners of all types are routinely killed, tortured, raped, and starved. In the US prisoners are raped by other inmates and aquire AIDES. Prisoners are killed by both guards and other inmates.

All of a sudden, the abuse of Iraqi prisoners is intolerable?

Abuse of any prisoner is intolerable. But what we and the world are showing here is selection. It's ok as long as it happens in Alabama and not Iraq.

Well, hoody toootie heey! And a girl's smiling face on a photo means she's an inhuman monster that deserves no mercy!

We all of us deserve mercy. Because we all of us have it coming, Kid.

munk
 
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