O.T. Just Punishment For Abusers Of Iraqi Prisoners...

I don't know which is worse - whether they acted under orders or were just acting sophomoric.

Like I've said before - I don't have a problem torturing people as long as the right people are tortured. But I have so little faith in that happening that I really am against torture for all practical purposes.

Now, truth serum! And other methods of manipulation, I'm definitely for.

But when a person, agency or government signs its names to a treaty, accord, agreement or policy, they need to danged well live up to it, or don't sign their names in the first place.

Don
 
Actually Don, it is not sophomoric to be teasing, twisting, screwing around with prisoners. The image Spectre sees is some louts who happen to have uniforms on abusing their authority under color of same. That enrages him.

<<What happens in US prisons may not be positive, either, but it has no bearing on the discussion of what happens to enemy combatants, and to even mention it is specious and sophistic>> Spectre

This is what pissed me off. Most people reading this would come away with a negative reaction, whether the words actually treaded carefully, literally, and legally away from the exact definition of 'personal attack' or not. My point wasn't just invalid to him- How dare I even mention it!!

But I'm over that now!! Spectre's just a guy. He gets to say what he wants.

I hope he wont shoot anybody the same way I hope you're not really up for torture.

The reason we don't abuse prisoners is the same- because we'd never know where to draw the line. I'd like to know if the CIA draws it's own line.
There are many things we refrain from doing not because of the bad guys, but because of the effect upon the good guys.

btw- many of our friends and neighbors have gone to jail or prison. Some wrongfully convicted, some for drunk driving, tax evasion, smoking dope, driving without a lic after numerous offenses, etc. These are all offenses deserving torture and rape?

the peace munk
 
Don,

"if you truly believe that any enemy of the US is going to kill captured Americans simply because of these "abuses" in prison, you are delusional"

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I believed that; I do not. The actions of these few soldiers have greatly contributed to an image of America that is not the America I would fight for.

As for how my squad felt about me? They knew I was the one who would've jumped on the grenade first, who would've stayed to cover their retreat, who would've charged the enemy to buy them time if they needed it. Feel free to make whatever assumptions you like, though. I could perhaps find what my Sergeant had to say about me, and quote it, but what's the point? :barf: If you think my fellow soldiers would be likely to deliberately off those most likely to take a round for them, you don't understand soldiers much.

"There are many things we refrain from doing not because of the bad guys, but because of the effect upon the good guys."

Yep.

John, looking for soldiers with crooked covers... :rolleyes:
 
780 usa soldiers killed so far and riseing,all for oil :mad:
and dont anybody try an justify it by any other means :mad:
AMERICAN LIVES ARE BEING LOST PLAINLY AND SIMPLY FOR OIL AND THE STABILISATION OF THE USA ECONOMY. :mad:

AS FOR THE PRISONER MISTREATMENT,of course the guards are following orders,but as usual the ones at the bottom will get canned,and the order givers will get away with it once again.

prisoners are shot and executed everyday by our special forces by there own addmission.
the special forces cannot take prisoners all the time just by the nature of the work they are doing,so no prisoners are taken ,no quarter given.

other examples are the falklands,british troops attacking mt tumbledown,give graphic details of how they were sick and tired of argentine troops shooting and killing there buddies,and then surrendering as soon as the british troops overran there positions.
one scots guard gives a very gory and graphic account of how he charged an argentine position and an argentine marine stood up threw his weapon down and raised his arms in surrender,the scots guard described how he repeatedly bayoneted the argentine,continueing to do so even after his bayonet snapped,only stopping when the argentine marine had sropped screaming.

so come on lets get real in war the idea is to kill or be killed,and of course bad behaviour will exist .
 
780 usa soldiers killed so far and riseing,all for oil
and dont anybody try an justify it by any other means >>> Kendo


Yes, Kendo, we do this for the stuff that runs the machines that feed, clothe, and house the world.

I try and tell people we need to go back to a pre-industrial world but no one listens, except those cousins to the Quakers, you know; the ones with the horse drawn carriages? And the undeveloped nations don't like this plan one bit. They get angry because they want electricity, computers, plumbing, and all that kind of stuff. Why can't they just poop in the streets like that alley in Basra the British just fixed? Darn British.


"Where have all the Flowers gone?
Long time passing"


munk
 
Kendo said:
780 usa soldiers killed so far and riseing,all for oil :mad:
and dont anybody try an justify it by any other means :mad:
AMERICAN LIVES ARE BEING LOST PLAINLY AND SIMPLY FOR OIL AND THE STABILISATION OF THE USA ECONOMY. :mad:

If it is all for oil, then how come Iraqi oil is not flowing into America by the tanker full?

The true fact is, Kendo, is that if it was all just for oil, then we would not have invaded in the first place - we would have just lifted the sanctions. So no, the "just for oil" argument doesn't fly.

If it was all just for oil, we could have just simply drilled for oil in Alaska, or removed the restrictions for oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico - more oil there than in all of Iraq.

No, it isn't JUST for oil. It wasn't, and isn't for oil at all. It was because, plain and simple, that Saddam Hussein had, and I do mean HAD, weapons of mass destruction, and would not declare them or destroy them.

We all think 9/11 was bad. If Al Qaeda were to get their hands on some of the stuff Iraq had, 9/11 would be a pitifully small episode. Just three weeks ago Jordanian security forces foiled an Al Qaeda-linked attack on Amman, Jordan that would have killed EIGHTY THOUSAND people. That same chemical attack in New York would killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people.

Do you think Bush was lying about the WMD's? Then I guess you think the Prime Minister of England and Canada were lying too. And Bill Clinton who said on Nightline in March that he still believes Saddam had WMD right up to the time the US invaded. The presidents of Portugal, Spain (yes, Spain) and Poland believed Saddam had WMD's.

And everyone that has even the barest of an intel community believes now that Saddam smuggled his WMD's into Syria - which is where that Al Qaeda strike force entered Jordan from just before getting arrested.

It isn't about oil. Never was. It was about doing the best we could do to prevent another 9/11, a larger and more horrific 9/11 from happening.

By the way, here's a quote from a recent news article:

"Canadian PM: 'Terrorists Have Access' to Iraq's WMDs
By Jimmy Moore
Talon News
May 12, 2004

MONTREAL (Talon News) -- Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin said on Tuesday that ousted Iraq dictator Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that are now in the possession of terrorists.

Speaking to a crowd of 700 university researchers and business leaders in Montreal, Martin said he believes the possibility of future terrorist strikes has dramatically increased because the terrorists have built a sizable arsenal of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons that formerly belonged to Iraq.

"The fact is that there is now, we know well, a proliferation of nuclear weapons, and that many weapons that Saddam Hussein had, we don't know where they are," Martin stated. "That means terrorists have access to all of that."

However, France and Germany as well as Democratic lawmakers and liberal political groups in the United States accuse the Bush administration of making up evidence about WMDs to launch a war against Iraq.

Even Hussein's capture by coalition forces late last year has not thwarted the threat of future attacks, Martin expressed.

"I believe that terrorism will be, for our generation, what the Cold War was to generations that preceded us," he said. "I don't think we're out of it yet."

Although former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien said poverty caused terrorism to prevail on September 11, Martin disagreed and said the attacks were nothing more than "hatred" from Islamic extremists.

Martin said he believes countries around the globe, including Third World countries, need to work to defeat terrorism for good. He is promoting having an international group formed among no more than 20 world leaders who will take on the topic of terrorism.

President George W. Bush approved of this plan and has encouraged Martin to submit his idea to the European Union and Latin America.

Copyright © 2004 Talon News -- All rights reserved."
 
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