O1, again

Tom Buchanan said:
what a wealth of information on this thread!not my place to even offer an opinion on the topic, as i am not knowledgeable[spell that right?] enough.i am concerned that when a newbie such as me asks a question further down the road, the response might be "first get your evenheat oven-salt pot digital whatever,then i'll answer your question".would hate to see a division between those who have and them that don't.just an observation
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Tom - I would never do such a thing to a newbie. There are many, many things that can be learned by using the old ways. Everybody has to start somewhere and it would be counter productive to all of us if new makers were dissuaded because they believed they lacked the tools. Such was not my intent and I apologize if I inferred otherwise. Good tools are expensive and it takes time for most of us to accumulate such items. For me, the important thing has turned out to be the journey, somewhat to my surprise.

Brian - For me the HT oven was the most important. I wanted to learn how to use it and to be able to experiment with temperatures and soaks. I wanted to see how the results would change if I went to more of an industry type approach. The tester was so that I could have some way to verify my results using an accepted standard method. I still do the destructive and cutting tests, but the test coupons give me a better starting point and some idea as to which combinations will work for me using my tools in my shop.
 
Fox said:
Guys, this has been a great thread... [:D]
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Fox I want to thank you for rescuing my day (I was going to rely on the triple stiff Manhattan I just mixed up, but your post is working well), I had a project that has to be done in the next 48 hours and required a piece of equipment I currently don't have, so I called into the Harbor Freight store in Lansing to make sure they had it and then hopped in the truck to make the 45 minute drive to get it. When I arrived I was told that they didn't have any in stock! :mad: :mad: I was so @##$ mad that I came home and poured my drink just to stop steaming, but then I saw your post.

The most fateful day of my bladesmithing career was many, many years ago when I first made a visit to the shop of my now good friend Tim Zowada. This guy challenged most of what I had read at the time, and really irritated and shook me up! So much so, that I went home and started cracking metallurgy books in order to prove him wrong (stuff by bladesmiths was all I had read before then so I was in for rude awakening), my reading ended up proving him right and forever changing the way I make knives.

Believe me, that I take plenty of heat for challenging the status quo on "traditional" bladesmithing techniques. There is clear division between "preserving" the art of the forged blade, and "advancing" the art of the forged blade, and I myself am often torn between the two. But it is truth (or more accurately,-facts) that always pulls me back to the technical side, because too often tradition gets mired in hype or myth. Being a heretic can be a fairly thankless pursuit, but occasionally you see that you spurred somebody to start asking questions of their own, and it feels good. It is ALWAYS more important to question the answers than it is to answer the questions.

I do have some guilty remorse upon reading your reply, however. I long for the days that I KNEW I was making the best knives in the world because they were forged in the traditional ways. My knives worked and that was good enough. Ignorance truly was bliss, but then I learned what really was going on inside that steel and suddenly my days were filled with endless testing and agonizing about unseen microstructures. It is an awful affliction that will give you ulcers if you let it. Take my advice and NEVER look at your steel under the microscope!

Adam and Eve were perfectly fine and happy until they ate that damned apple; then everything changed. I read your post and hope I have contributed to your growth and not burdened you with a horrible affliction. But ugly as it can be, fact is always preferable to the alternative.
 
Tom Buchanan said:
...i am concerned that when a newbie such as me asks a question further down the road, the response might be "first get your evenheat oven-salt pot digital whatever,then i'll answer your question".would hate to see a division between those who have and them that don't.just an observation
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I would hate to see that as well Tom. The lines of traditional versus modern and hobbiest versus professional should not become walls. I have to admit to my self imposed limits in question answering, however. I will most times refrain from participating in discussions that involve scrap/mystery steel or improvised quench mediums because it is impossible for me to have enough information to give a reliable answer that could be helpful. But I hope I never reach the point that I snub folks who work out of a coal forge. I still have a coal forge and despite all the folks who say that I have a gas forge and no longer need that old smoke maker, I just wouldn't feel like a bladesmith without it in my shop.

It is funny that for a job I use the salt baths and metallurgical lab, but for fun a relaxation I take a charcoal forge and bellows and work some old wrought iron at a primative camp. I thin that says something about what we are discussing :) .
 
blgoode said:
This discussion has gotten my wheels turning about a wavy hammond in 0-1.......hummm....how can I do it with what I have at the house? :D
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Even better yet, your post got me thinking about it as well. It is not like I have always had a more technically geared shop, I spent years learning how to do it by eye and instinct, more than one person has made the mistake of handing me blade at a forge, thinking that I couldn’t do it without salts or thermocouples. Indeed I am better at eyeballing it now than ever because the thermocouple has calibrated my eyes even more.

So instead of arrogantly pontificating on the technical stuff, I will apply the technical stuff to some gold old traditional ingenuity to see if I can help out in your pursuit. Since O1 is deep hardening and the clay will not slow the cooling enough, perhaps one should approach things from the opposite direction- where the heat goes. If it gets above critical, it will harden, so if using clay, put it on thick enough and heat efficiently enough, to keep the spine from reaching critical. The hammon will not be as pronounced no matter what you do but you could develop its contrast by using various microstructures from pre-heat treatments. Finer microstructures would also austenitize quicker so there would be less time and heat required on that edge.

It could all be done in a forge with a jar of furnace cement, but the real necessary tool would be the knowledge of the material.
 
kevin-you have a unique ability to be able to convey tech stuff in a way people can understand.i can certainly appreciate the effort you and the others have put forth to learn this thing called knifemaking so well.i'm just an old fart puttering around in the shop having a great time with my crude equipment and enjoying every minute of it.i also enjoy you folks.
 
NickWheeler said:
All I wanna know:

Is a hammond an almond flavored hamon???

:p :D :p

-Nick-
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Frank Zappa talked about a hammond organism in one of his songs. :p :D
Scott
 
Hey, Tom, if anything this thread proves that good knives can be made a variety of ways, but that there is always room to grow. A steel like O1 can evidently be half-assed, 3/4-assed or fully mooned to get good results! ;) Happy 4th, everyone.
 
Uh oh bubba, you'sa gonn an dunn-it now!!! :p :D :p

You see Chiro, you're going to get the same answer no matter where you ask.

If YOU want to know what really works best, it's best for YOU to experiment and find out.

I like Fox's posts a lot. He had questions, so he worked to find the answers, which lead him to more questions.

I have more questions now than ever.

I think it's GREAT to go on the forums and ask questions. I do it all the time. But I also realize that many of them will have to be answered by doing my own work in my own shop.

The biggest "issue" with a thread like this, is the feeling that a guy asks a question and is only happy if he gets an answer that fits within the requisites that HE set as an appropiate response.

Just a thought :)
-Nick-
 
One can never really understand what works until they also understand what doesn't, and why, IMHO. For better or worse, right or wrong, it was ingrained in me as a "science guy" from the moment I started working. We never did simply "success" experiments, but always pushed to the point of failure to understand the reasons why "what works, works". I'm not apologetic about that, the efficacy of that methodology has been proven countless times. it is essential to the concept of troubleshooting when things go wrong or the desired results aren't obtained.

A man who will only learn how to screw in an incandescent lightbulb will have to remain in the dark when the fluorescents fail.

Nick, your hunger for knowledge and perfection has impressed me since the day I met you. I am hoping as many as possible buy into that same view. If one person comes away from this thread having gained that attitude the effort will have been worth it.
 
I agree that this is a great post. Tons of good info and ethics discussion. I guess I don't get the whole "do what works" theory, but that is just me. In my personal opinion, it is easier to do it scientifically than by the seat of your pants. I am not saying that those who do it by "feel" can't produce a good blade, but those who control time and temperature will have better and more consistant results.

For example, the little 1095 hunter/skinner pass around knife I did, I heat treated it in the forge. The tip ended up getting snaped (doesn't matter why :mad: ), but it was the combination of geometry and the result of the tip being at 1550° for an extended amount of time while getting the rest of the blade up to temp, resulting in grain growth. If the knife was only used for what it was intended, the problem would have never been found. It was a fine slicer and razor sharp, but the heat treat was not good enough.

Needless to say, it proved to me, that there is no need for me to heat treat anything with out using my salt pot. Controlling the process variables is the most important part in obtaining reliable and repeatable results. Knowing what happens during that process allows you to refine the process even more, and produce a better quality end product.

I have always said that it is easy to get steel to harden, but controlling all the other little details is what makes it difficult. I understand the basics of metalurgy, but I have learned new things from this post and the "reading assignments" involved.

The learning aspect of knife making is what got me interested in the craft. I saw a damascus knife on the internet and wanted to know how it was made. So I researched it, bought some books and a video, and made my own. Then made my own mokume and also played with the transient liquid phase bonding of titanium. I now have a few ideas for other "stuff" that I want to try. It should be interesting. ;)

Everyone has their own motivation for making knives, but I am a firm believer that those who quest for continuing improvement will eventually leave the others behind.
 
Hey Mete,

Thanks for posting the link. That site has a lot of articles that I am interested in reading. Right now I am sifting through this article on the TTT Curves.

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art17.htm

I have seen the diagram many times, It is in both of the heat treating books that I own and I think it was Sean who also posted it a few days ago. I have just never been able to figure it out. I hope by the end of the weekend that it will be a lot clearer.

Mark,
You posted a good website as well. I did bookmark it for future reference. Right now, I just want to figure out what that diagram means.

Thank you both.
 
fitzo said:
One can never really understand what works until they also understand what doesn't, and why, IMHO. For better or worse, right or wrong, it was ingrained in me as a "science guy" from the moment I started working. We never did simply "success" experiments, but always pushed to the point of failure to understand the reasons why "what works, works". I'm not apologetic about that, the efficacy of that methodology has been proven countless times. it is essential to the concept of troubleshooting when things go wrong or the desired results aren't obtained.

A man who will only learn how to screw in an incandescent lightbulb will have to remain in the dark when the fluorescents fail.

Nick, your hunger for knowledge and perfection has impressed me since the day I met you. I am hoping as many as possible buy into that same view. If one person comes away from this thread having gained that attitude the effort will have been worth it.
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Are you saying if you dont try new ideas and concepts you wont learn anything new or improve any tried and true existing designs?

Does that apply to H-frame forging press's also?:D
 
adammichael said:
Are you saying if you dont try new ideas and concepts you wont learn anything new or improve any tried and true existing designs?

Does that apply to H-frame forging press's also?:D
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The key is willingness to accept failure as the price of learning, isn't it? In the case of the press, the only real potential weak link is bolted in...sounds like smart planning to me! :)
 
Here's an update on the second O1 test blade I did. I reground the blade because it was the last one I did on my "special" worn out platen (so the middle of the edge was twice as thick as the tip or the plunge area). I went ahead and overheated it, knowing I wanted to try my HT again. Once it was a better flat grind I stuck it in the forge and tried to maintain a consistent heat throughout at non-magnetic or very close to it without overdoing it. I spent about 5 minutes at this turning the gas up and down and moving the blade all over the place until I started to get tired of it. But, 5 minutes seemed better than no minutes, and 10 minutes seemed like a waste without really knowing my temperatures, so I called it even at 5! :rolleyes:

Anyway, quenched in oil and tried to maintain a consistent quenching area, although I didn't clean the blade up enough to etch it yet, so we'll see about that later. Tempered for 1 hour at 385°F.

I did some more light grinding (keeping it cool this time) and out a working edge on it, then a really "fancy" wrap of hemp and duct tape, which lasted about 20 seconds.

For testing I started with cardboard slicing, which I did for a while and checked the edge and it was still in good shape. 3/16" thick 1" wide stock with a flat grind pretty much guarantees that the knife won't excel in this regard. I then stabbed the point (it's a Wharncliffe) into a very seasoned, very hard, pine board (that I broke the tip of a Strider AR off in last week! :eek: ) 125 times and the tip and edge had no deformation. I used a branch to hammer the knife as far into the wood as possible, and that was also fine. I chopped, I dug in the wood, I twisted and pried with the point, I whittled, I smacked the edge on a nail in the board a couple times and I also did a brass rod test.

The knife had no chipping or deformation on the brass rod, and it showed a little light marking from hitting the nail a couple times. It lost its edge after all this abuse, but about 10 passes on each side with a Spyderco Sharpmaker had it in good shape again. Point is intact and in original shape without having to regrind.

All in all I was very happy with the performance of the knife so far.
 
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