Of Copyrights, Patents, Trademarks, and Intellectual Property

Sadly true, there was a time when frivolous lawsuits flew in flocks at the court house.

Also true that defending intellectual property is difficult at best.

I've turned down work because I was asked "Can you do one exactly like this?" when it involves proprietary features. Evidently that is the exception not the rule. Why not go to the person who specializes in that "signature" feature?

The Harsey knife above is a good example, the plagiarism is unmistakable, Harsey wrote a strong note about it on another people site. He didnt get heckled for fussing about the copy, they rallied behind him. Busse defends his trademark and gets a load of heckling, same for Emerson's Wave, and Spyderco's opening hole. Why do some get heat and some get praise for defending their property? It doesn't make sense.
 
I believe once a patent has expired, it is considered in the "Public Domain".
From that point forward anybody can make it.

zzyzzogeton said:
Long preparatory lead-in for a simple question. :D

With respect to patents,

Assume a feature on a product or line of products is patented by the original designer/maker/company.

XX years down the road, AFTER the original patent has expired, if someone wanted to use that feature in their work, would the 'new' maker/manufacturer need to get permission to use the feature from the original designer/maker/company or (or current holder of the name)?

The most obvious example of this situation of which I can think would be with the patent Western was granted in 1932ish for the double tang construction. The patent expired before Western sold out to Coleman who sold off the Western name to Camillus in 1984 who declared bankruptcy and sold off all assets in 2007.

If someone was to want to make double-tanged knives, would they need to legally or honorably have to get permission from someone?

I'm sure there are many other examples out there, some even dealing with sheaths. :D :D
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Talfuchre said:
It seems this discussion turned to China not respecting patents, someones word, honor and respect - none of which are matters of legality.
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Fear not, using "sometimes" as a qualifier is not needed. Those words or ideas do not apply in any fashion in the courtroom. It has cost me about 30K to find that out.

I have been self employed for almost exactly 30 years and have started 3 construction related businesses (including the one I have now) and one small financial concern. I have been sued 3 times, and been called as a witness for and against several more. I have been threatened by attorneys more times than I can count, with money being the only remedy the complainants could see as a resolution (imagine that...). No one has ever won an nickel from me, and only one suit actually got in front of a judge, and he tossed it out citing the filers as having insufficient grounds for a suit as well as admonishing their attorney.

Here is what I have learned; there are plenty of lawyers that hide under the law school cloak of "everyone deserves justice" and other fine platitudes when taking on incredibly silly cases in order to make their student loan payments. Lawyers leave all the fine language that defines us as human beings at the door when practicing law. Their mission is to provide service to those want to use the legal system and to maximize the dollars going to themselves and their firm. RIGHT OR WRONG HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LEGAL SYSTEM. At best, all the attorneys can do is take your case and leave it to a judge and/or jury.

One of the corporate attorneys I spoke with when I was roped into a lawsuit (later, the plaintiffs dropped me out of it after the discovery process deciding I wasn't a culpable party) told me "the law isn't about right or wrong, it isn't about hurt feelings, it isn't about integrity, and it isn't about honesty. Practicing law is simply allowing the court to decide if the letter of the written law was adhered to". He should know, he taught law at Trinity University here in town, which at one time was a fairly prestigious, nationally ranked school.

And Dwayne, if you ever want to have a quick chat about the effectiveness of patents and copyrights, I will shoot you a phone number and we can have lunch. I am here in San Antonio as well. I have someone that was a friend of mine that started with a dream of making a set of nested wrenches for plumbers and other tradesmen, and the story of how that ruined his life is heartbreaking. He did nothing wrong, but in the end his invention ruined his life.

Robert
 
Thank you for the input Robert, and I'd love to meet with you sometime for a steers n beers meet up.

So, the gist I am getting here is doing whats right isnt so much the issue, its the futility of expecting anyone else to do whats right when there is money to be made.

So lesson for anyone out there, come up with something that ends up popular fully expect copycats, move on and move forward and stay ahead of the lazy bums. Always strive to do the next one better than the last, improve designs, and watch as they scramble to keep up. :D The old quote comes to mind "Often imitated, but NEVER duplicated" Challenge yourself, not the sloth that wants to benefit from your work, his will never live up to yours. His will always be a cheap copy. Spending your time worrying about this will waste valuable time in R&D on that better product. If your well known enough for your work, honestly everyone knows where that design comes from, those that support the copycat are only fooling themselves to get a better price for inferior work.
 
I've been following this thread since it started because it hit home with me, and i have a question that i`ve been pondering for some time now...
i started making kydex sheaths about two and a half to three years now,first for balisongs and then for folding knives...One day i decided to make one, for one of my EDC knives the Blur and accidentally made it in a way that you can open the knife while pulling it out of the sheath( i call them speed opening)...till then the only other sheath that i had seen like this was the leather one for the Buck knife back in the early or mid 90s(?).I started tinkering and i figured out what i did that made this sheath to work like this and i started making it for the Blur and at the same time trying to see if it will work with other knives including Benchmade and Spydercos....While i was "developing" the Spyderco sheath and had 2 maybe three working "prototypes" i came across this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/924207-Kershaw-Blur-Necklace-Sheath
scroll down to Mr Brown`s post....
Well i was "crushed" LOL...had I not seen this i would had finished my sheath"independently".At the time i figure i don`t need any more headaches than i already have and stopped looking at the Spyderco knives....but after while and since i keep finding the abandoned project in front of me(I never throw stuff away ,i have few drawers and boxes full with sheath projects :) ) i started thinking...first although both my design and Mr Brown`s use the Spyderhole as the means to open the knife why would one need permission from the knife maker to do so...that's what the hole is there for...to open the knife, and they are knifemakers and we are sheath makers, and second and most important to me is this,we both utilise the Spyderhole but my design is totally different than Mr Brown`s design
So the question i`m asking now is this what is the right way to proceed on this in your opinion?
 
Patents. I find it disgusting that people believe everything they can think of should be able to make them a million dollars.

As was mentioned already, the big thing about trademarks and patents is money, plain and simple is if you do not have enough to not only obtain patent/trademark but be able to ENFORCE it then there is no point in bothering to invent something and then later complaining that someone else is using your design. The option is there for you to protect your work, If you financially cannot or just do not want to spend it then you lose the right to complain about it if you choose to go public with it or post it all over the interwebz, you already know that someone somewhere is going to copy it.

There is no morality about the subject, How many sheathmakers use the Loveless cam or Randall retention? or Kydex, what you thought you were the first to wrap plastic around something? Leather and Kydex, what you can't patent gluing one medium to another? Heck how about leather itself? You weren't the first caveman who decided that dinosaur hide would make a great place to put your sharp flint. It's just ridiculous, You do not have the right to own EVERYTHING.
There is also a point where you make a contribution to better your craft, peers and society in general. If all you care about is it's mine,mine, mine!! then maybe you should re evaluate some things.

You can only reinvent the wheel so many times. A sheath is a sheath. People that take the time to design something truly unique and then spend the time and money to patent it are afforded the protections it offers by law. Like it or not. If you don't like the law then do something besides complain and change it. This excuse of well I am not selling so all this crap does not apply to me will not hold under the law, It's just what you tell yourself so you can have a clear conscience at night but since you feel that way please leave your doors unlocked, I promise I won't actually use anything I take.

I have several trademarks and patents, some have nothing to with sheath making, most are simply for Customs to enforce against our fine importing, reverse engineering pirate kingdom to the far east. Some are for certain features I do not want people using from my work because they define my work. People copy my things all the time and post it, heck there's a few just a couple posts down in this forum right now.

Big deal.

Unless it's for profit or someone actually has the gall to say that it's their design and that stupid Gnome guy ripped them off. I'm not going to pick up the phone because it costs money to get that ball rolling even though I get it back plus some later. I would much rather devote that time and energy and money on improving my own work or shop.

If you have your own unique style, logo, branding etc. whatever. Spend the money and trademark it if it bugs you but only if you plan on enforcing it or your just throwing money away on a feel good measure.

Regarding the morality of the subject and handshake ethics regarding patents and trademarks, I'd be the first to go back to those days but the fact is this isn't 1950 and the world has moved very far away from those days and is not going back. I'm not the type to spend all my time railing about how the world the other 7 billion people on it should be doing what I think is best. This is the way it is now, deal with it or build a time machine and take me with you.

"But, but, Sky you filthy little gnome hypocrite, you are using Hedgehogs fancy super strap doohickey thing!"

Why yes I am, Under license, Meaning legally, as in we pay for the privilege of using something that is patented that we did not invent.

Ok my soap box broke, anyone seen my hammer? :D
 
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leatherman said:
If your well known enough for your work, honestly everyone knows where that design comes from, those that support the copycat are only fooling themselves to get a better price for inferior work.
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This is why a 'Tiffany' lamp is worth so much and the knock off's worth very little.

Personally - if I carried, say, one of Chuck's sheaths - I would be proud to support one of the good guys - and know I not only had quality - but somewhere to turn if it ever had any issues.

"Reputation" is worth a LOT in my, and many people's, book. Call me an optimist - but I think your attitude, Dwayne (as stated in your last post) and the good guys will win out in the end.


Skystorm said:
Regarding the morality of the subject and handshake ethics regarding patents and trademarks, I'd be the first to go back to those days but the fact is this isn't 1950 and the world has moved very far away from those days and is not going back. I'm not the type to spend all my time railing about how the world the other 7 billion people on it should be doing what I think is best. This is the way it is now, deal with it or build a time machine and take me with you.
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You mean the day's of internment camps, lynchings, legalized segregation, the ongoing Tuskeegee experiments and so on?

Leave it to Beaver was a show brotha - those times never existed. ;) I get tired of hearing about 'the greatest generation' when those same old dudes were the ones who drive the banking industry into the ground and laughed about it.

I am not saying Generation X is better - or the Millenials - mostly the same. (There is just so damned much press when someone screws up now a days.)

However - if we get that time maching up and running - let's go back and patent leather. ;)

However, the truth seems to set us free - and I think, again call me crazy, that the good guys finish first... in the end.


TF
 
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Talfuchre said:
You mean the day's of internment camps, lynchings, legalized segregation, the ongoing Tuskeegee experiments and so on?

Leave it to Beaver was a show brotha - those times never existed. ;) I get tired of hearing about 'the greatest generation' when those same old dudes were the ones who drive the banking industry into the ground and laughed about it.
TF
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Whaaaaaat????

Wow, TF, where did you grow up?

When I was growing up in Mayberry, we had a great couple that lived next door and the guy was a real character name Ricky. His wife Lucy used to be kind of silly but had a great heart. I remember them getting into all kinds of situations with their good friends Fred and Ethel. Fred seemed grouchy to me, but my Dad always told me that was before he took his "medicine".

We never locked our doors as our only bad guy was name Otis, and he had a problem with taking too much medicine from time to time. To stay out of trouble, he use to let himself in and out of the jail though if he had too much so he never really hurt anyone. He was always nice to me. He used to give the Deputy, Barney, fits though.

On the other side of us was another great guy, a guy with three sons. Sadly, no Mom. We never knew what happened to her. I remember Dad talking to Mr. Douglas congratulating him on only having one son (me!). Many was the time he would lecture my dad starting with "well, MY three sons..."

Across the street we had a really nice guy with three kids in the family like ours. The Dad was always a little on the quiet side, but with a big warm smile. His kids always told us that he was a fairly stern disciplinarian though, and when he was finished arguing with them, they knew because he used to say "Father knows best", meaning, not the kids.

Sounds like you missed out. By the way, our roads were paved with chocolate, money grew on trees, and there were no traffic problems with cars.

Anyway, to have a bit "on topic" part of this post, here is a glossy overview of patent defense woes. Anyone got an extra 100K and a few years of their lives they don't need? This is the short, pretty version. I read the whole thing in another magazine (Forbes, I believe) if anyone wants the blood and guts of it. In the Forbes article, the inventor points out what would have happened to them if they had run out of money for litigation, run out of will power, or had lost on a technicality.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2001/11/01/312475/

Robert
 
Skystorm said:
I have several trademarks and patents, some have nothing to with sheath making, most are simply for Customs to enforce against our fine importing, reverse engineering pirate kingdom to the far east. Some are for certain features I do not want people using from my work because they define my work. People copy my things all the time and post it, heck there's a few just a couple posts down in this forum right now.
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Oh my, I am a couple of posts down. If I done something wrong let me know ok? :eek:
 
Sonil, if the design is different I think you're fine (again though, I probably don't know what I'm talking about). As for manufacturer permission, I'm with you on failing to see the reason. That's what the hole/wave is there for.

On the broader subject, and somewhat inline with Skystorm's post, the whole "mine" thing is the reason I rarely look at threads by new makers. Every time I see "my idea" or worse "patent pending" on something I know has been done way before them, I just get annoyed. To anyone reading this with a bright idea, just please do some research before announcing your brilliance to the world or getting all legal-minded.

Speaking on Kydex anyway. I don't know enough about leather to really comment. They tend to fall into "sleek and simple", "art piece", and "why is that guy wearing a backpack on his belt?" to me.
 
Talfuchre said:
Robert -

I was merely trying to say that those things happened in the 50's and early 40's.

You described my home town, by the way, I just returned from a visit - we STILL don't lock doors there. ;)

TF
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I was just being silly. I completely agree with you. Pay no mind.

Of course all of those things and many more happened back then and have all through the history of man. There was no "golden time" where everyone was honest and upright, and there was no social strife, corruption (politically or corporate wise) and the streets were never completely safe.

I went on a bit long about it I will admit. But now in my later 50s, I am sick of hearing as I have heard for decades about how great things used to be. I think it is silly to boast about the integrity of one's generation based simply on a time frame. People are people, no matter when, where or what the conditions are. There are good guys and there are bad guys. There is a famous saying, "situations change, but people don't" that I am particularly fond of.

But these days we are smothered by so much information (as was pointed out) that we even know every detail of everything about everyone no matter how trivial. Watching or reading the news, one can easily decide that today's society is just an awful cesspool.

My ham handed point about the TV shows was to agree with you; from all of the folks I have talked to, it was never like the shows, anywhere. My mom stayed home and took care of us and all three kids were all she could handle. Never saw here vacuuming in pearls in a pressed dress (although Donna Reed pulled it off nicely!). My Dad seemed to come home exhausted after every day as when he accepted the job as the "assistant manager" at his place of work that meant 60 hour weeks every week. After all, he was on salary.

We are in the best place for all of us at the best time to be here. Life's travails don't skip generations, nor do the constant execution of the seven deadly sins. They have always been here and always will be. Unless you live in Disneyworld... :D

Robert
 
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Talfuchre said:
Robert -

I was merely trying to say that those things happened in the 50's and early 40's.

You described my home town, by the way, I just returned from a visit - we STILL don't lock doors there. ;)

TF
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I remember the days, and towns where we didn't worry about locking things up. I really REALLY miss that. Its so nice to trust everyone in the neighborhood, and they trust you. I do honestly believe those places are almost extinct. :(
Skystorm said:
No problem, Cut me a check for 10k and well call it square :D
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Lessee now, the check is in the mail!!! :D If it stretches a little when you handle it, dont worry I use a special paper. ;)
 
Dwayne - I think this is more of a sign of population growth and the ease of transiency. Also, we, as part of our media, love being terrified. It not only makes us feel like we are actually living (which of course we are not) but it drives sales.

Sad - but books like "A Culture of Fear" and the like are good at explaining it if interested.

We mentioned law suits - Tort Reform is one of those examples. "Frivolous" law suits were mostly a figment of imagination. Most were thrown out - if they were given massive awards they were generally made reasonable by judges. People mention the Stella Liebeck case as if it were gospel truth. When researching her case - we find the truth is a lot more damning for McDonald's than for her.

Mostly tort reform was to put caps on lawsuits - driven by corporations - so that corporations could get sued less and pay less.

TF
 
I'll see if they have that book at my library! Thanks! :) Sounds like an interesting read. Stella is used often, I did read the description of the damage and it was a bit horrific.


Sky, I "dropped" the check in the mailbox, it hit the bottom and flew right back out. As soon as I locate the little bugger I will "softly" place it in the box.
 
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