OK...im frustrated

Artilary6 said:
Thanks again for everyone's support here. I suspected the KAbar's edge was way thicker than 40deg. Thank you for varifying my suspicion. I have inked the edge and am now gently grinding away on the 30deg slot. The ink is almost gone so I am getting very close to a clean 30deg angle. I am being very careful to maintain good form and alignment during strokes. I also suspect I was applying WAY too much pressure before, trying desperately to rush the precess. I am now applying light to medium pressure and the angle appears to be going well. I have 320 grit sandpaper I will use to smooth the egde out before going to the medium stones. I will then run the edge trough he complete process before creating the micro bevel of 40deg. How will I know when the micro bevel is large enough? I suspect it is simply a judgment call on my part. Thanks again everyone and I will keep you posted on this noob's progress!

PS...What is the benefit of a microbevel over one large bevel?
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The way to see if you hit ther edge is burr. If you have nice burr on all edge length this is the point to stop and start re beveling opposite side. Burr is clearly visible from other side when light reflects from it - as bright line, also you can feel it by fingers.

Friendly warning - It may take days and days to rebevel KaBar with medium rods...

Thanks, Vassili.

... Sorry forget that you have Sharpmaker burr will be harder to detect because it folds from one side to another...
 
A burr is very easy to detect. Strop the blade on a pants leg, first one side, then the other. Now run your thumb off the edge of the blade -- not ALONG the edge, at right angles to it. On one side, it will be smooth, on the other, you will feel friction. That's the burr. If you want to check this, strop the friction side and run your thumb off it again: it will be smooth now, and the burr will have been flopped over to the other side.
 
Well, the question was, how do you know when the microbevel is large enough. In normal circumstances, it can be any size you like, the smaller the better. If your edge is truely 30 deg, you should see immediate results on the Sharpmaker with 40 deg and as soon as you are satisfied you stop. I would recommend you simply go through the standart Sharpmaker protocol: 10 strokes each side on the medium, 10 strokes each side on the fine. Either first the edge then the flats of the rods or just the flats. You can play around with that. Over many resharpenings with the Sharpmaker, the microbevel is of course getting larger and not so micro anymore, so it takes more and more strokes to get it sharp again. So eventually you probably will want to back-bevel at 30 deg again, but it will be a while till that is nessessary.

Should you notice excessive chipping, rolling etc. you can reinforce the edge by applying intentionally a bit larger microbevel. You won't reinforce the very edge with that but the material right behind the edge. But unless you are hitting concrete on a regular basis or digging in dirt, I doubt you will experience any problems.
 
Due to the softness and flexibility of sandpaper you probably have over a 15 degree bevel when you finish reprofiling (15 degrees per side is a 30 degree edge in Sharpmaker terms). The hard way to proceed at this point is to use the medium rods until you get a perfectly true 15 degree bevel that reaches all the way to the edge. The cheater way to go (the way that will give you quick results) is to finish with a relatively small amount of honing at 20 degrees (using the 40 degree slots). This will not give you as high a performance edge as if you put in extensive time at 15 degree, but you can get a sense of progress. You can always go back and work some more if you like.

PS. When I work on a Kabar I reprofile using a file or a belt sander and go down to 10 degrees per side. Then I would microbevel at 15 degrees.
 
I am at a total loss for words here. I have the edge down to a shiny, glossy finish and parts of the edge are not visible, meaning it should be reasonably sharp, yet it isn't very sharp at all. The knife will slice paper, but thats about it. Not within miles of shaving sharpness. The edge toward the back of the blade is actually visible to the eye still, looking like it was dragged along a rock or something. This part of the blade is very dull and looks like the edge never formed at all. It appears to be rough, and blunt. The rest of the blade, from just before the middle to the tip really APPEARS to be quite sharp. The edge itself is invisible to the eye, and the bevels are polished and shiny, Yet, will only slice paper and nothing more. Not close to pushcuting or shaving by any means. No part of the edge will catch my fingernail when dragged along it, leading me to believe I either have a wicked burr, or the edge has just been totally rounded off somehow. I sharpened long enough to form a micro bevel of 40deg. When it wasn't sharp, I kept going making the bevel a little bigger. Maybe if I sent this knife to someone for inspection they could tell me what I have done wrong, or at least whats wrong with the edge. I just can't seem to get this edge to smooth out and become fine. Maybe im pressing too hard. Man I just dont know. If there is a burr, how do I remove it?

Also...I found an old pocket knife last night. It had a really dull, notchy edge on it. I used it on the Sharpmaker and did the whole 30deg then 40deg thing...now its like a razor with a handle basically. Slices paper well and shaves hair off my air nicely. Probly not a perfect sharpening job as the bevels could be more straight, but its much more sucessful of a job than I have done with the kabar...i cant figure it out.
 
Here's my take: you can see the edge from the middle back to the hilt - dull. You can;t see the edge from the middle to the tip - leading to believe it is sharp. It sounds like maybe you're still sharpening at too steep an angle (steep meaning sharpening at 40 deg when the actual edge is about 44..[as an example]). I'd recommend you keep working with the "sharpie marker" and make sure you're getting a crisp edge along the length of the blade before working on a micro-bevel.
 
My guess would be that you stopped too early. You should really pull up a burr (an unmistakable burr) on the first time at an angle below 40 deg. Not because you need the burr, but rather to be sure that you have rebeveled all the way to the edge. At least you have had success and know that the Sharpmaker is working.

Really, hang in there, you are not the first person to struggle with this. Experiences like you have with the Ka-Bar are precisely the reason why there is so much talk about beltsanders and extra coarse stones. It is also the reason, why there is so much talk about factory edges. Personally, I take a well shaped edge over a sharp edge any day, meaning I rather take a knife with the edge bevel at 15 that is a little rough and unfinished or deformed rather than on that is nicely finished, polished and sharp at 25 deg per side. Now you know why.
 
I don't get any reasonable shaving performance until I sharpen at 10 degrees per side. I think that has to do with my hair and the extreme dryness where I like (7,200 foot elevation, dry side of the mountain). This is particularly true with a blade that is somewhat heavy like a Kabar.

The sandpaper trick lets you remove material faster, but you need to progress to a finer finish that extends all the way to the edge at an acute angle. Commonly a novice will not put in enough work at a low enough angle to achieve this. It might help if you got a variety of sandpaper to work with. Use 120 grit to get down to the rough shape you need then go for 220, 320, 400, 600 before you switch to the medium ceramic rods.

Do NOT use high honing pressure as you get to the later stages of honing. That will damage the edge. As you progress use lighter and lighter pressure. If you use the rod edges at all (I don't very much) use light pressure. The edges of the rods can overstress your blade edge. I would do all my work at 15 degrees or lower until the very end. At that point I would still not use the 20 degree slots. I would use the flats of the white rods in the 15 degree slots. I would fake a 17 or 18 degree angle by just slightly tipping the spine of the blade towards the center of the sharpmaker as I honed lightly a few strokes. I would do that until I got an edge that caught my fingernail and that had some shaving ability.

A final trick on a simple carbon steel like a Kabar is stropping on leather. You need to get a basic shaving edge first using the honing I talked about above. Then strop on any smooth leather surface. I often use an old belt. On carbon steel that can really make a difference in shaving performance.
 
Excellent tips! I will NOT give up on this. Its friday and I will stop by Home Depot to pick up some more sandpaper grits and I will try again on the Kabar from 120 grit @30deg and all the way up. After reading what you said Jeff, about stressing the edge with the rod corners, I am certain I have done this to the extreme. I will sharpen this knife all weekend long if I have to until I get it right. I have a fundamental question....Being human, isn't it impossible to hold the angle of the blade exactly steady? Won't this effect the quality of edge put on the knife?
 
It might be impossible to hold it "exactly" steady, but all you can do is your best. It works even then, believe me. WHen you get your very first edge on that knife, from hilt to tip, it will all become clear to you.

I agree with Jeff, too, that you don;t necessarily have to have your primary edge at 30 and micro-bevel at 40. Sometimes just tilting the knife a skosh like he says (and using whisper light strokes) is all the micro-bevel you need.
 
Artilary6 said:
Being human, isn't it impossible to hold the angle of the blade exactly steady? Won't this effect the quality of edge put on the knife?
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I have heard that even the best can not hold the angle just by eye and feel. I have also heard said that even the best freehand sharpener will get a slightly convex edge. There are many who feel that the best edge is a convex edge. So even if you can not hold a perfect and accurate angle on each stroke you can still produce a good, sharp, durable edge.

I cheat and use a rod guided system. It produces a nice even bevel along the length of the edge.
 
You may need to clean your Spyderco rods by now. This will show up on the white rods as black streaks, but may not show all that well on the medium rods. I used a rust eraser last time with good effect, but any good cleanser with a pot scrubber sponge will do.
 
I scour them well periodically while sharpening to keep them cutting well. Hard H20, you have a rod guided system?? I have seen a sharpener selling for about 200 bucks somewhere on the internet (forgot what site) with a sliding rod system with the stone attatched to it. It looked fantastic and easy to use, with super clean bevels of course across the entire blade. Is this like what you have? Or do you use something with the Sharpmaker. I fixture or Jig of some sort might help me a lot. But with the Skarpmaker it looks like i'll just havw to practice.
 
Guide rod systems are inconvenient with long blades. You would be better off buying some of those coarse ruby rods for the spyderco.

You don't need perfect bevels to have a sharp edge. You can buy knives that are only sharpened on one side (chisel grind blades) and they work. The only thing that you need to do is to get a sufficiently acute edge. There is no magic except to remove enough material. The fancier the sharpening fixture the more overhead you get into for removing material. If you want to move on to a much more effective sharpening kit, supplement your spyderco with a cheap (less than $100) benchtop belt sander. Suddenly you will be able to do in minutes that which takes hours by hand.
 
Jeff, that sounds fine to me. I just want to be able to put a very clean, shiny and professional looking edge on my knives, especially on something as expensive as the Green Beret. Is there a technique for avoiding damage to the tip of the blade? I notive at the end of the stroke the blade flings off the rod and starts to blunt the tip from the side. Also, do I need to twist my wrist downward to effectively sharpen the rounded part of the blade?
Thanks,
-Ryan
 
Artilary, it's your call of course, but you have what I believe is a bird-in-hand...that being the Sharpmaker. The system you saw on the internet was probably the Edge-Pro....very expensive but gets excellent reviews that I've seen.

The Sharpmaker WILL get your knife razor sharp. If I could be bold without seeming too cocky, I would say DON'T invest in another system. Not yet anyway. You are suffering not from equipment failure, but technique and experience failure. Keep going and you'll agree once you get that knife sharp! You have the right tool, it just won;t do it for you.....if you know what I mean. I was in your shoes once not long ago....as were most everyone else in here, at varying times in their sharpening lives.....

ON EDIT: Oh, regarding the rounding of your tip.... You have to watch that hehe. Whether you're sharpening on the corners or the flats of the rods, as you near the tip, concentrate. Slow down and do what it takes to NOT let that tip slip past the rod! It still happens to me on occasion, and I've reached the conclusion that it just will sometimes - I just have to limit it to avoid rounding over. It should never happen, however, when you're using the flats of the rods....as long as you're concentrating.
About the wristwork: I do on mine. As I approach the belly of the blade, my wrist is ever so slightly lifting the handle upward (or maybe keeping it from going downward relative to the rest of the blade). Does that make sense? How much wrist action depends on the profile of the blade.
 
Thanks Stretch. I appreciate your direct advice to not invest in another system right now. I am sure that once I get good results from the Sharpmaker that i'll be a lot more confident with it and with myself. I never thought I would have so many questions about sharpening knives! Afterall, its supposed to be dead simple right? I guess some of the simplest things are easier said than done. I'll keep at it and continue to update on my progress.

Thanks,
-Ryan
 
I have never really noticed this problem, but people complain about it all the time. I had about 30 years of hand honing experience under my belt before I ever tried a ceramic rod system. Caring for tips is a pretty automatic process for me. Yes, you should be rotating the blade tip downwards as you stroke. Only work on the flats of the rods when you go near the tip. The belly of the blade (the edge right in front of the point) should be nearly horizontal as you finish your stroke. To pretty-up your tip, remove the rods, turn the sharpmaker base upside-down on your workbench, an lay the rods in the grooves in the base. This makes them work like a small bench stone. You can work the tip freehand using the rods this way.

If you want to protect the sides of your blade you can mask the surface with tape. Just be sure to leave about a 3/16-inch wide strip of blade uncovered adjacent to the edge.
 
OK...I discovered something and please tell me if this may be effecting my ability to grind an edge on this thing. Both sides of the knife are not at all symmetrical from the factory. Thw blade grinds are different heights. Could this effect my ability to work an edge on it? Or should I still be able to just grind a V on the edge no matter what the shape of the factory hollow grinds?

edited: I was wondering why one side of my grind work was taller than the other side. I thought my form was just off or my right side stroke was lopsided compared to my left side stroke. Maybe my un even grind had something to do with the non symmetry of the blade?
 
yes, if the primary is asymmetrical, then the edge bevels will be as well (with a consistent angle). Still, the angles on each side will be the same because you are using the sharpmaker. Of course, with a wider bevel, you are removing more metal, so it will take a little longer to get both sides to meet at the apex and form the edge properly.
 
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