OK I'm stumped!

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For those of you who have been making knives for awhile this will seem like a lame question
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But I am getting ready to do my first hidden tang blade. I found a piece of stag that fits perfectly (Don't ask me how, just luck). Anyway should I do all of the fitting first and then heat treat?
My dilemma is this. If I fit the guard before heat treat and have to sand off the crud off the ricasso before final assembly.
Will my guard then have a sloppy fit?
I plan to use 1 or 2 pins thru the tang to hold the handle.
Would I be better off making it a thru tang and using a butt cap and nut?

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I like to do the fitting after heat treat, just in case there is any need to take off more blade material.

For strength I like to use a threaded pommel. But if you do a stub tang correctly, it will be strong. On a stub tang it's a good idea to file or grind several notches to increase the surface area that the epoxy will grab.

The thin butt plate with a nut looks good if you do it carefully, but in most cases I think it looks best if you use a blind bottom tap and just thread the actual pommel itself.

Or, you can get threaded sleeves from K&G that you solder to thin butt plate material, eliminating the need for a nut.

Just some thoughts
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Nick
 
I also heat treat before fitting. I put a slight taper on the tang and it seems to make it easier to fit the guard.
I usually run the tang all the way through the handle, but I've done it both ways and haven't had any problems.


 
from what i read i do it the same as all the other guys,the only other thing is what to use as a binder or glue i`ve used epoxy in the past but have had bad experiences with the stuff,personally i like J&B WELD the stuff is strong!! the only thing is you have to have really tight joints or you will have thin little grey lines at the bolster to stag joint.
when i worked in the engine shop we J&B welded two chevy intake valves together , the next day we clamped one in the vise ,put a snipe on the other and all we did was bend the valve stems..no breakage tough stuff no doubt!!
sorry didn`t mean to write a book here :P

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i keep grinding and grinding and it is still too short!!
 
from what i read i do it the same as all the other guys,the only other thing is what to use as a binder or glue i`ve used epoxy in the past but have had bad experiences with the stuff,personally i like J&B WELD the stuff is strong!! the only thing is you have to have really tight joints or you will have thin little grey lines at the bolster to stag joint.
when i worked in the engine shop we J&B welded two chevy intake valves together , the next day we clamped one in the vise ,put a snipe on the other and all we did was bend the valve stems..no breakage tough stuff no doubt!!
sorry didn`t mean to write a book here :P

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i keep grinding and grinding and it is still too short!!
 
As far as JB weld and the thin grey lines. Use a black epoxy colorant and maybe a black spacer to eliminate any of this color that JB weld or shafting epoxy may leave.
 
This isn't so much advice as sharing my feelings on the same problem. I too would prefer to fit the guard after heat treat when the blade is all cleaned up and polished. If, however you want to pin the guard, you have to prefit it because you won't be able to drill the holes after heat treat. I can't imagine being precise enough to drill the holes in the guard to match the holes in the blade.

I asked a friend for advice on this and he smiled and said prefit the guard - drill the holes - heat treat - polish up removing as little as possible - get the pins in - and then either sqeeze it in the vice a bit or whack it with a hammer.

disclaimer I have not tried this yet. The alternative, of course is to solder your guards rather than pin them or to use thru-tang construction, fit the guard after heat treat and rely on epoxy and pressure from the screwed on pommel to keep the guard secure. (I know of one very well respected maker who uses this method.)

Keep this thread going please guys. I'm sure this is an area where many of us would appreciate some hints.

Rob!



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
I agree, this is a great thread....I am attempting my first hidden tang at the moment. Last night I was making the handle and realized that when I sandwiched the steel handle between the slabs I would have a bunch of epoxy ooze into the hole in the steel where the tang is going to go.....did that make sense?

Anyway, I used a couple of layers of notebook cardboard cut to just the right size to fill the tang hole. Put on the epoxy and clamped, then pulled out the cardboard a couple of minutes later. This seemed to work okay as it removed the "oozed" epoxy and the tang fits like a charm.

How do you do it?
 
I use Fiberglass resin colourant in the epoxy and it works great. I wonder if this could be used with JB Weld. Its worth a try.
Also I am using 5160 with a Olive oil quench. Works well but makes a mess of the blade.
Would switching to stainless cut down on the crud after heat treat?

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RHankins Available knives
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:
Bob, I read where a guy is using a borax wash made by mixing borax and water, bringing it to a boil and coating the blade before heat treat.
He says it cuts down on the amount of scale produced, but I am new at this and although I have made some knives in the far past when I was a young man I don't know how this would work. Might be worth a try on a junk blade that didn't turn out, if you have one laying around just to see.

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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

"I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."

........unknown, to me anyway........

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Himalayan Imports Website
 
:
Bob, the guy's name is Karl Schroen
and the paragraph in the book says the "washing" type. I presume the kind you use in your laundry.
He says he takes a coffee can and fills it with 1/3 borax and 2/3 water then he puts it on his grate over his forge or on a seperate fire and brings it to a boil.
After he coats it he lets it dry before heat treating.
HTH's and hope it works for you. I for one would like to know results either way if you don't mind.


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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

"I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."

........unknown, to me anyway........

Khukuri FAQ
Himalayan Imports Website
 
I just found another solution to the problem. Paul Bos. I just got my first batch of blades back from him. No Scale - no discolouration - If I'd mirror finished them I could slap handles on and ship them. It would work well fitting the guard before heat treat with Paul.

Rob!



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
I will try that this week Yvsa. I will post the results.
Rob, I agree but I am using 5160 so Paul is not an option untill I get some stainless.
Thanks for all the ideas
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[This message has been edited by bobH (edited 10-31-2000).]
 
20 mule team borax(1/3) to water bring to boil , dip blade in let dry ,and heat treat a bit of work but it does cut down on the slag.my total forging and heat treating process is exactly how carl does it, it works for me and i owe it all to carl schroen!!
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i keep grinding and grinding and it is still too short!!
 
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Bob have you got to heat treat your blades yet using the borax and if so how did they turn out?



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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

Each person's work is always a portrait of himself.

---- Samuel Butler.

Khukuri FAQ
Himalayan Imports Website
 
Not yet.
I have a few more blades to grind before I heat treat them.
I will post the results as soon as I get them done.
 
Thanks Yvsa,
Well the Borax trick worked
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Did the formula 1/3 borax 2/3 water dip, dry heat treat.
Cleaned up lickety split!
I am using 5160 with an Olive oil quench. Before I really had to grind the crud off. This time using the Borax it came off with no effort at all.
 
I do quite a few hidden tang knives.I file a shoulder on the riccaso,taper and notch tne tang.I then drill ane fit the guard.I then heat treat the knife.I use 5-minute epoxy to glue the guard.Next, after drying, remove excess epoxy and glue on handle. Dave

 
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