Old Guys vs FNG's....EVERYBODY PLEASE READ

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BARRY JONES

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Oct 2, 1999
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I usually try to keep myself out of arguments but I need to vent a little. All members of Bladeforums should pay close attention to what I have to say here since it will ultimately make an impact on the object(s) we so love to make and collect.

Some kid (aka the "FNG") posts a question or a remark about making or using knives, whether it be legal/moral or not, and some or most of you guys treat him like he is a troll, troublemaker, or plain idiot. "Old Guys" jump on the "FNG's" and either want the post deleted or they treat the "FNG" in an unfriendly manner. Usually the "FNG" is driven away from the forums with a bad view of the forum members.

Exhibit A:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum41/HTML/001039.html

Exhibit B:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum41/HTML/001051.html

I think that it would be much better for the knife community/industry if the "Old Guys" would reply to all posts like the ones above in the following manner.

1) Show the "FNG" some respect. The door swings both ways. You get respect by giving it. Don't you remember how you thought and acted when you were a kid. I'll bet most or all of us thought of knives in the same way.

2)Consider an "FNG's" post as an opportunity to TEACH said "FNG" the proper way of handling or making edged tool. Don't just tell him that he is a moron and try to drive him away from knives. Take the time to show the "FNG" the right way.

Nearly everyone in the knife community is concerned that his/her beloved knives (or in my case my career) will someday be taken away from them because of improper use of knives and how the non-knife public reacts to them. You could at least take the opportunity to try and educate the non-knife public so that there will be more knife lovers instead of knife haters. Remember, there are non-knife people who probably lurk here. Don't give them any more fuel for thier side of the fight than they already have.

The bottom line is that we are all here to discuss and promote knife making and knife collecting.

My $0.02



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Barry
Jones Knives
"NEW Knives"
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=126319&a=5922856&f=0
"For DUTY and HUMANITY!"
Curly, Moe, & Larry
 
The Web is no place for the thin-skinned, nor is BladeForums the appropriate place for minors to surf unsupervised. There are plenty of trolls out there, and it's embarassing sometimes just how far we bend over to make nice with people who are messing around or looking for attention.

Despite the mean old codgers who jump down the throats of the innocent young people batting their eyes in their innocent ignorance, we've managed to register thousands of users and see regular posts from hundreds of them.

I remember the first time I ever posted on the usenet -- and promptly got flamed all to hell. They'll get over it. If not, the Web is no place for them.

You raise some valid points, and it's to our benefit to give people the benefit of the doubt. But I'm going to call a troll a troll when I see one.

-Razor

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me.gif

AKTI #A000845

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 06-11-2001).]
 
I don't think there was much question that that guy was "trolling". He was posting about making knives in the context of kids making them an taking them to school. I don't have much sympathy for the way he found himself received.

It doesn't take much common sense to realize that posts like that are not appropriate.

I've not been on the forum very long but from what I've seen newbies are treated well. That guy showed himself to be a moron. He could have very easily come back and said "Sorry, that was intended to be a joke." or "I understand that my post was in bad taste." but he didn't.

Instead when he realized that we weren't going to play along he just moved on. He had options and he didn't do anything that I saw to make a contribution to this community.

Until he makes a decision to do so....good ridance to bad rubbish.
 
I agree that newbies should be given some slack, but for the most part they are. If someone is well-meaning, and just underinformed or misinformed, people here are very helpful. If someone is just screwing with us, they'll be called on it pretty quick. As far as the example(s) you gave, I think the idiot was treated appropriately.

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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"Is not giving a need? Is not receiving mercy?" - Thus Spoke Zarathustra
"Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about." - Lazarus Long
"Knowledge is not made for understanding; it is made for cutting." - Michel Foucault
 
Barry, I think most of the time everyone, or at least some members, are pretty careful to welcome Friendly New Guys and even cut them some slack, but it seems first they have to take their lumps and be initiated. I sure did.
If the guy in your two exhibits was trolling, friendly him.
smile.gif
 
As a new member and a 14 year old, I must say that I am very annoyed at people like him. I have never had to make a knife, because my parents know I am responsible and they allow me to purchase them. I carry a knife practically everywhere... but not school. That is one place I would never bring any sort of weapon... Purposely..(once in elementary school after a camping trip I forgot to clean out my backpack and found a SAK in one of the smaller compartments, it scared the sh!t out of me(possible suspension) and I promptly put it deep in the depths of the bottom of my pack).


By the way, I'm far away from a "newbie"... been participating in usenet and public forums for three years and have had the living crap flamed out of me.... took me about 1/2 a year for me to become more mature, and another 1/2 for me to finish. Some people think that others are hard on the newbies... being a reformed "newb" I say that you can't be too hard on them. Almost got into serious trouble one time, and that is when I grew up, and realized I was acting like a retard... It takes time and a lot of bitching, but eventually they will learn, maybe not completely from any of you, but I'm sure he will learn someday.

Best regards,
Dennis
 
Hi Barry,

The FNG in question made a post that went beyond anything appropriate. I've only emailed David415 maybe three times to give him a heads-up about inappropriate posts in his forum...this was one of them. Not only did he make an inappropriate post, he answered it even more inappropriately.

In the second post you referenced, he was "guided" on future postings and told he was welcome, assuming his posts were more acceptable.

I see several possibilities on what he is:

  • A Juvenile: This is probably not a wise place for him to hang out.
  • A Troll: Then we don't want him here.
  • A Juvenile Adult: Maybe correctable, maybe not. Time would tell, but re-education is required.
  • Just a for-real FNG: With this kind of post, he needs re-education to stay. That he received.
    [/list=a]

    In any of these above scenarios, I think he was handled appropriately (more or less).

    I do agree that other FNGs have been mishandled. The "What's the sharpest knife?" type posts can be irritating, but should be handled as a future valued contributor to this forum. Everyone needs to learn somewhere...forums like BladeForum.com is the place.

    The "spirit" of your post is good...your example does not do your point justice.

    Ron

    [This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 06-11-2001).]
 
Wether it is a new member, or an old timer, we can do nothing less than offer a mature response to an immature suggestion.

There are many minors that visit this site and learn from our exchange. We owe it to them to provide our best advise. It's unfortunate that originator was offended, and it would be much more unfortunate if some kid followed his advice and ruined his future.

N2S
 
Ron makes an excellent point.

"What's the best knife?"
"Should I buy the Brand X or Brand Y?"
"How do I sharpen my knife?"

I invariably see these threads started by someone as a "first post" and I usually read them as, "I don't really know anything about knives yet, but I want to participate and say Hi."

Those people should be WARMLY welcomed to BFC as with time, a lot of reading, and spending their grocery money on knives, they'll become friends and regulars. I think BFC is one of the best teaching and recruiting tools the knife world will ever see.

However...
(c'mon, you knew I was gonna say that!)

When someone comes in and says something that translates to,
"Help me build a knife so I can take it to school and do bad things."

They need to be burned to the ground on the SPOT! Scorched earth, no stone left atop another.
Then they need to be told they are welcome if they choose to modify their behavior.

Trust me and my cynical outlook to be suspicious of such posters as "Hedge Trimmer."
I think it would be an Anti-person's dream to be able to come in here and post drivel like that in hopes of getting a response something like,

"Oh yeah! I built some knives just like this for the kid across the street, he said he needed something to slip through the metal detectors so he could kill his gym teacher."

and don't you know that tomorrow we'd see that plastered all over some site similar to the VPC?
http://www.vpc.org



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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
MOLON LABE!
 
Trolls aren't like non-knife knut lurkers. They are a by-product of the internet age. it is easy for jerks to spam and troll, as all it takes is a click of the button to let 'er fly. Do any knife companies receive troll snail mail? No, 'cuz that takes effort and requires some time to think about what you are doing. Trolling on the net takes no time and even less brain power. After a "please stop", trolls deserve a boot until they come back more mature, or just stay away.

Genuine FNGs deserve more slack as they are trying to play by the rules, but need our help to do it.

Which brings me to an important part: there are RULES here! Thsi isn't "the net", this is a forum for people interested in knives. This forum is privately owned and has its set of rules. Here's a clip from the rules here:

"It's our philisophy- Be nice to others and they will be nice to you. It's a proven one as well- when there aren't attacks and nastiness, the level of discussion and the sense of community always increases.

This is not to say that you cannot disagree with anything that you see posted. Just don't be nasty about it. Back up your point of view with facts, logic and reason and you will see the same kind of responses to your own statements."

The rules also say no trolls, no flames, no name calling. Though there has been plenty of flaming and name calling, I think that the moderators have done a pretty good job of keeping things in order, without having to resort to more drastic measures. There are other forums out there that if you even question what is said by the owners/moderators, you get the boot. (You old timers know what I'm talking about!) Do you wan't Bladeforums to turn into a forum like that? No way!

Trolls are a nuisance. Go read the Assassin thread in Strider, which also links you to the Mall Ninja Epic. We don't want or need that here, and furthermore, IT IS AGAINST THE RULES!

We do have rules here, and it comes down to BE NICE. But also, no trolling, flaming, or name calling. Friendship and rationality welcomed with two thumbs up here.

As far as FNGs go, I think they do deserve more slack. I have answered a bunch of "how do I sharpen...", "what is your favorite sharpener...", etc. threads. I think I have even made some threads like that myself! If I am just going to say "do a search" to a FNG, I usually not post. Someone else will tell them that. If I do post to a thread that I have seen 100 times, I try to ADD information.

To all FNGs, please understand that when you are a golden oldie (I am not claiming that I am the oldest, most knowledgeable guy around either, but I do have more than a few posts!) and when you see "how do I sharpen..." for the 100th time, you'll think "Oh God, that again" too!

Good thread Barry. It reminded me that we do have a set of rules here, and it made me go read them again.

Oh, P.S. to FNGs: read the tutorials and FAQs PLEASE! It tells you there how to post pics, about searching, the rules here, AND how to sharpen stuff!

And byt he way, bttt means back to the top!




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"Come What May..."
 
Hey all you listener's to Bob & Tom's radio show, got a news flash from good ole' Mr. Obvious himself. If you read between the broken sentences, and totally moronic statements. You to will come to the conclusion this is no FNG: freaking new guy, this is a FNT Freaking New Troll.

Sorry you never made the connection Mr. Jones better luck next time
tongue.gif

p.s. I like the knives you have on PhotoPoint
.
Troy

[This message has been edited by Weapon_X_711 (edited 06-12-2001).]
 
Barry, et al.

Nice thread, with much insightful thought provoking commentary.

As an FNG here at BFC I was/am a little taken back by the "Whole nine yards" approach taken by many of the "Old Guys" here towards the newbies, and as such found myself scampering back to the safety of the "other" forum.

It seemed to me at the time that this was a forum chock full of opinionated, self-effacing, A-holes...and I nearly just stopped coming by.

Well, after realizing that at 40 years of age, with a safe full of nicer knives, having had worked the local show circuit, and with some 350 odd posts "next door"...I was becoming an opinionated, self-effacing, A-hole "old guy"...and as such should come back to BFC.

Truth be told in the words written above by all..."Trolls should be ignored or banished, newbies should be supported and encouraged, there are rules here or there would be no orderly discourse, and this "ain't" no place for the thin skinned" But...

...I'd like to finish the thought with a recommendation that all the "old guys" remember that to grow the stature and legitimacy of our business and hobby; we are it's representatives, and as such need to see ourselves though the eyes of others...we're gonna need them, so let's treat um right.
wink.gif


Mel

"Buy Quality and Only Cry Once"
 
I make really stupid mistakes on occassion. One such was giving that poster advice on self-defense at school. After thinking about it for a while I decided that was a pretty bad idea and removed the post.

I try to leave my responses to such people open for the possibility that I might have misunderstood them, and/or that they might have made a dumb mistake. I've made enough of them myself to be a little soft at the beginning.

I think that's the best course of action. But it certainly doesn't mean I would continue in that fashion if the circumstances dictated otherwise.

I apologize in advance for the stupid things I might have said, and that I might say in the future.
wink.gif
 
I would just like to say that I am a "FNG" and have been treated with nothing but courtesy and class. thanks, guys.
 
I'm really surprised that a few forum-members don't think minors should be here.
There's no smut or pornography.
There's no instructions to build criminal devices or commit criminal acts.
There's no profanity.
And there is alot of good advice and knowledge about knives here.
There's nothing on this forum that I think should be "adults only".
And it's never too early to learn about defending yourself.

So, why would'nt you want young boys and girls to be here (and I mean kids that are old enough to carry and use a knife).
 
AllenC,

re.:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm really surprised that a few forum-members don't think minors should be here.</font>
Click to expand...

It's not a personal thing. There are strict legal requirements imposed on sites that cater to people under the age of 18. As indicated when you registered, Bladeforums is therefore available only to those 18 and over. Having said that, we realize that some members may misrepresent their age and that many other youngsters may be lurking, so it is incumbent on all of us to behave responsibly.

 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm really surprised that a few forum-members don't think minors should be here.</font>
Click to expand...

It's not just BF; I'm against minors using the computer unsupervised for any purpose, including but not limited to visiting any site whatsoever.

-Razor


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me.gif

AKTI #A000845
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Razoredj:
It's not just BF; I'm against minors using the computer unsupervised for any purpose, including but not limited to visiting any site whatsoever.

-Razor


</font>
Click to expand...

Although I am a minor and would be a little annoyed if my every move was watched, I think some if not most people should be monitered. I can't even count the number of times I have found porn dialers and virii/trojans on my computer after my brother has been on
mad.gif


Razoredj:

Who do you consider a minor? Any body under 18? So, you would trust an 18 year old on a computer, but not a 17 year old? That's not quite fair to the 17 year old. When people turn 18 they get and stay really wierd and immature for about a year afterward(a lot of time the immaturity over rides what it was when they were 17).

-Dennis

 
On a lighter note: Razoredj, now your look really scareS me
biggrin.gif


I want to add, when I was an FNG and EVEN now still in learning process, the forum has been very educative, full of courtesy .. though sometimes flaming happens
wink.gif
which is only part of life that we have to live with.

AND, Moderators have been really doing the job well.

this is a cool forum to be on. THAT'S IT.


[This message has been edited by Chris Anagarika (edited 06-12-2001).]
 
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