Old Hi Carbon kitchen Knives

C

chefboy2160

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Jul 8, 2004
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Hi, I am new to this site but have learned a wealth of info on it by reading past threads!Thanks for the knowledge!
I have several very old hi carbon knives,Regent Sheffield,Case Olde Forge, and Sabietier which preform very well even with the hi-carbon stainless out there and they take a screaming sharp edge very easily.I used to buff them out with steel wool to keep them shiny but now have become enlightened in letting the patina be.
My questions would be just how hard is this old hi carbon steel on the rockwell hardness scale?
Is this old hi carbon steel softer than the newer hi carbon stainless?
I have also read about micro rusting of the sharpened blade when hi carbon cuts acidic foods and that it realy eats the blades edge away and that is why hi carbon stainless is preferred!
My other question is if you steel the blade as needed are you not kind of keeping the rust at bay if you clean,dry and keep your knives oiled?
I did a test today in the kitchen with two cases of tomatoes(about 120 of the buggers) where I used an old hi carbon knife(50 + year old Sheffield) and a newer hi carbon stainless Forschner and I noticed that for that razor edge the Sheffield required less steeling than did the Forschner!
This steel thing is quite new to me even though I work with knives for a living so if any of you have your opinions please enlighten me!
Thanks, Doug............
 
Welcome. I love the old carbon steel blades myself. To answer your questions:

1. The hardeness would normally be around 56 - note it also depends on the type of carbon steel used - the more carbon the more likely it is to keep an edge. Some of these old carbon steels would contain from .6 to .95% the better the quality of knife the more you can expect the higher range of carbon.

2. Yes acids will attack the edge but regular maintainance will assist such as wiping continually - there is a school of thought that suggests that when acid attacks the micro edge it can improve the cutting ability as in some cutting jobs a micro saw tooth edge is better then a polished edge.

3. Yes regular steeling will keep the edge 'clean' of micro rust deposits but don't forget to keep your steel clean.

Hope this is of assistance.
 
Live with the patina, you do get to like it after a while.As soon as you are finished cutting clean and dry the knife .Use the steel when necessary. I have never oiled carbon steel kitchen knives. The last time I used a carbon steel knife in the kitchen I processed a big batch of apples and quince and my hands turned black from the steel !! I then went to stainless ....Carbon steel can vary a lot as can stainless.
 
I have found some carbon steel kitchen knives that are harder than 56 RC. I would estimate some Case and Old Hickory knives to be up around 58 RC.
 
The one thing not to do is try to polish off the patina. This is a protective layer and if you remove it you may get rust in its place.......I love my hi car blades.
 
I'm not sure on the Rockwell hardness, but I love old carbon blades. I picked up a very old unmarked carbon steel chef's knife for 50 cents at a yard sale. I cleaned it up a bit, sharpened it, and oiled the handle, and it has rapidly become my favorite knife in the kitchen. Even though it's a bit large, I find myself using it for cutting up veggies all the time because I can get wonderfully thin slices on tomatoes, onions, and carrots with very little effort. I just steel it a bit before I use it, and haven't had any rust issues even though I don't even oil the blade after use. I does have a pretty good patina though.

--Josh
 
I was told that some of the "best" carbon knives are used by butchers.

Next time, you walk into a butcher shop, ask about the kind of knives they use. There should be some interesting tales there!
 
golok said:
I was told that some of the "best" carbon knives are used by butchers.

Next time, you walk into a butcher shop, ask about the kind of knives they use. There should be some interesting tales there!
Click to expand...

I don't about local butchers, but I think that most US slaughter houses have went totally stainless by government mandate. :confused:
 
Golok - in Oz all butcher shops must use stainless steel with plastic handles and the same applies for meatworks for human consumption. The only area where they can use carbon blades are the knackeries and they are still popular there. Talking to old butchers before the new regulations most say carbon was the best and the most popular were the "Green River" brand of knives.
 
Dexter - Russel made good HC butcher knves my father was a butcher in the old days and has several I have one of his, great knife. 14 in long razor sharp, good flex good edge retention.
 
Interesting replies. One of the knives I mentioned (the old Sheffield) has been used by me for almost 20 years now and it was old when I found it!As I am a professional chef this knife has seen a lot of hard use over the years but it still cuts and holds an edge great!There realy has got to be something about this old high carbon steel! Is it the steel or is it the knife making process(tempering) that make these blades seem harder and more durable?
P.S. I like the patina and leave it alone.Thanks, Doug............
 
I collect old carbon steel kitchen knives, and in my opinion they're far superior to most of the kitchen knives produced today. In terms of edge retention and sharpness, if not always ergonomically.
I took some pictures of the kitchen knives I had available at the time and posted them in this thread. In my opinion the old Dexter Russell knives are hard to beat, and they're pretty easy to find on Ebay.

James
 
I didn't realise the US butcher shops have gone stainless steel. Over here in Malaysia, many of the butcher shops still use the old-fashioned carbon steel cleavers and other blades.

They look pretty good to me. Those big, gleaming knives slice through bones just as easily as they slice through meat.
 
I too have a love for carbon steel knives. Grew up in a butcher shop but have been an exec chef for years before I started to tech culinary school. Grandfather started the shop in 1922 (still in business today) and I learned early, that Solingen (Germany) had the best steel and Sheffield the best hardening and tempering. IMHO nothing beats carbon steel. Today the best carbon steel comes out of Japan check out link http://www.japanese-knife.com/ see masamotto. Make sure you use stainless if the Board of Health is around-they got a real case of the ass for carbon steel knives with a patina. Old time butchers would rub their knives with a piece of animal fat this would prevent oxidation and rust.
Chef Paul
 
I looked at the link for japanese knives and bought a Tojiro 9.4" chefs knife.Its supposed to be hi carbon sandwiched with an outer layer of stainless. I have used it daily now for 3 weeks and man is this steel hard.The company does not give the hardness scale but it is much harder and better at keeping its edge than my western knives.All the company can say for steel is its the best swedish high carbon steel sandwiched with 13% chromium stainless. Great hi carbon steel and no patina,heck whats next?
 
Hi, Chefboy. Good to see you here. Understand that the Tojiro has a stainless core, despite what the manufacturer claims. I used one for two weeks during a review and the edge never discolored. I loaned a brand new 12" Sabatier Au Carbone chef knife to a chef today so he could shred some cabbage and slice some onions. The edge was very discolored after only a head of cabbage and two medium onions. The stainless steels are so good these days there simply isn't any reason to use carbon steel kitchen cutlery any longer. The Japanese gyutos made from VG-10 or that Swedish competitor of it are simply outstanding. You couldn't give me a carbon steel knife (well, maybe a 300mm aoko honyaki yanagi.)
 
I think you can see why the school of carbon steel bowies and hunting knives is still strong. From a cutting point of view, carbon steel does everything that stainless steels struggle to achieve, while being easy to resharpen. Most stainless steel knives are hardened to a greater level of hardness to try to improve edge retention, but at the expense of more brittleness at the edge when faced with tougher tasks like chopping and accidentally nicking bone etc. The stainless fans may like their VG10 and S30V (which are excellent stainless steels), but I'll stand by my personal preference for carbon steels.

I think the gov't mandated switch to stainless is misguided.

The japanese carbon steel kitchen knives are in a class of their own. The steel they use are ultra-high carbon types with hardenesses in the 62-65Rockwell range. The laminated construction keeps them tough and flexible. And yes, the ones with the stainless VG10 cores are also amongst the best I have come across. Resharpening is still a little more difficult, though.

As a slight diversion - the Swedish Fallkniven knives now have a laminated VG10 core sandwiched in 410 stainless steel. Heres a stainless combination I could get excited about... :) Just my 2 cents. Jason.
 
When you get to the subject of Japanese knives you get into my favorite element. If you get past all the tradition and simply test traditional Japanese knives, you, like I, may come to the conclusion that the best of them are forged "honyaki" style from stainless steels. Honyaki knives are hammer forged and then differentially heat treated in the manner of the samurai swords. I have yanagis around here of many different types of construction and price level. The very best yanagi I have ever used - period - is the Suisin Inox Honyaki which is made from a hard Swedish stainless (I don't know which one.) This is a knife in the $300 price range and it outperforms aoko honyaki knives that are typically in the $500 to $800 range.

Masamoto has recently released a series of traditional Japanese knives forged in VG-10. That's a big deal for someone of Masamoto's stature and ties to tradition. I haven't tested the Masamoto but I don't have to after testing the Suisin and knowing Masamoto's reputation.

These knives are no more difficult to sharpen than the best aoko hagane steels, they hold an edge the same, they feel the same in use and they don't corrode and discolor. Actually, they are less expensive than hand made knives made of the best aoko hagane. If difficulty in sharpening is an issue then one can choose one of the many kasumi type knives that have a thin, easy-to-sharpen, core.

There is no reason at all, other than tradition or cost, to buy a carbon steel kitchen knife. At least there is no performance reason. I used to think so, but not any longer.
 
I know this is an old forum, but I still came across it and felt that there was a bit of a lack of information about the differences between hi carbon and stainless knives. Steel is made stainless by adding hi percentages of either nickle or chromium. While stainless takes less maintenance, it has no where near the potential for sharpness that straight hi carbon does, even hi carbon stainless. Reason being is the molecular structure. The nickle and chromium that is used to make steel stainless has a much larger particle size than the steel. With the larger particle size, your edge can't get anywhere near as thin when sharpened, and therefore cannot be as sharp as steel not containing nickle or chromium. I am a chef as well as a bladesmith, and when it comes to making a knife that I want to use in a kitchen, there is no other steel than hi carbon, non stainless. I really like L6 tool steel, and my favorite, though I've only been able to get my hands on it once, is Aogami Blue super steel. As for the hardness, carbon content does play a role in the hardness that can be obtained, but it is much more dependant on the heat treating and annealing. Just thought I would add that but for anyone who comes across this thread in the future.
 
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