Old Knives: "Caretaker Obligation" vs. "Tools Ment To Be Used"

[6.0stroker]

:thumbup:+1 To what Charlie (waynorth) has so Eloquently stated!!! Users are there and collectors are there for a reason and I'd carry and enjoy the Ulster!!!

 

[Bastid]

Charlie's thoughts mirror mine although his are much more eloquent. I have some old knives that I enjoy carrying and a few that are just under glass because that is where they should be.

That knife is schweeet. Personally I could go either way with it, but odds are I would carry it.

 

[4ever3]

It's resting happily in my change-pocket right now thanks to the thoughtful replies in this thread.

Thats what I'm talking about! Pocket knives are meant to be carried and cut things. Now I'm not saying to use it as a pry bar, or a screw driver or try to cut rebar with it cause thats not what they are made for, but to be used with care for what they are intended for makes the world a better place :thumbup: I don't care what the knife is, if it's mine, it's going in the pocket at some time

 

[300Bucks]

Well,
My take on this may sound funny, as most don't consider Buck slipjoints as knives of elegant craftsmanship. Oh, you will get folks to tell of their toughness and edge holding ability. But, how can you even consider a black plastic handled knife beside one of the jigged bone, hand polished beauties. Guess it's like cars, whiskey and women -you develope your own taste and hold that as opinion of high virtue.

I collect in the effort to find a example of all production models produced, I put up one or two examples, usually the second is in better shape. I don't keep the knives in boxes. Boxes are saved in one location. I have my favorite patterns for edc, I keep a stable of about ten. Over a years time I will change out a few. I use good knives that I have a better example of that I have traded out of collection. I take the poorer example and give it a quality sharpening and place it in my edc box. I edc what to me and _bay are fairly costly knives, two 1966 Buck Stockman and a third version 112 lockback in Segua wood. I recently decided that "Life is Worth Living" and started carrying a old elk scale Buck stockman. You know the ones that have taken on that 'golden' color of scale. This is now my favorite collector and carry version knife.

User or collector, I understand both worlds. I get pleasure in the hunting, organizing, polishing and yes even arranging for storage my collection knives. I have fun touching up, oiling, carrying and using my edc knives for cutting tasks, especially hunting.

To each his own,do what you like. No man knows the day.

300Bucks

 

[kamagong]

I guess I'm thinking of the 'big picture' in addition to their monetary value. If everyone used their rare old minty knives, future collectors would eventually be deprived of the privilege of first-hand experience with the delicate and potentially ephemeral old factory finishes.

Interesting dilemma you have there. I personally don't think that a person who owns a vintage knife owes a duty to anyone but himself. If he owns the knife, he owns the knife...period. He doesn't need to conserve it for future generations, if he wants to make it a user it's his prerogative. After all it's not like the whole world will later get to fondle and enjoy that mint knife, only a handful of collectors will ever get to touch it.

On the other hand I do understand and appreciate the mentality behind preserving these beauties. I was trained as a historian, and I know that as artifacts these mint knives are valuable as they can convey a ton of information with regards to construction and design. A mint Remington Scout Knife from the 1930's can tell an experienced eye any thing from what jigging was used, to choice of steel, to sharpening quaility on factory knives for that era and so on and so forth. Once a knife gets used and worn that information is lost.

I guess I don't know exactly how I feel about this issue. I'm a bit conflicted, and I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong answer. The important thing is that people are made aware of the dilemma so that they can make informed decisions before they decide to use those mint knives.

 

[hunterfisher808]

Great thread....food for thought to say the least. My first inclination was to say definitely use it. Then I thought of all my safe queens (including my fine shotguns) and realized your dilemma. Personally the knives that are truly dear to me are my users, but there's a lot to say about pride of ownership and appreciating beauty. Its also in a collectors nature to try keep them in that (pristine) state. It would be hard, but I think if you used that beauty that you posted, (even sparingly) it will then mean that much more to you, as it will fill in that gray area which has you on the fence. There are Safe Queens and then there are EDCs, you could use this one as fulcrum of the extremes.

 

[Ice Tigre]

I'm a user. Collectable, either in value or rareness means almost nill to me. But they are not "just another tool" to me either. But the Quality, older knives you speak of, were made to be used. My respect for the craftsmen that made them makes me want to use them. I think it rather selfish in a way, to keep it pristine and just look at it... Almost seems like cheating all the folks that put blood, sweat and tears into making them what they are.

I got some collector in me too though... several patterns I want one of every ever made... just love them that much, but for variety in what I can use more, than just wanting them. Then again, I love cleaning, sharpening, organizing and displaying them... Just because its a user doesn't mean I can't stick it under glass, or on a shelf to be seen when its not being carried.

I see your point on keeping them around for further generations to be able to see and handle, a good thought! But, I'll add to it in a way; a lot of used and well loved knife last for generations as well, either for future collectors, or for future users.

Use 'em!

I think that Carolina River Rat summed it up for me; there's smething cold and lacking in a pristine new mint condition knife. It's like it's never lived, or had any memories attached to it. No mojo from grandad or anyone else.

If the knife in question belonged to a loved and departed family member, then I'd store it away as a family heirloom, as I have done with my grandads and dad's and uncles knives. Include a photo or two of the person and a letter about them. But if it's just a knife that you picked up in a trade, or bought, use it well. Enjoy it for what it is.

Bingo... except(IMHO) for the putting away family heirlooms part...

For me, that's proof to the first part; The loved one that the knife came from spent years, maybe all of their life putting that 'special feel', memories, and a bit of wear into the knife, I see no better way to experiance it, and remember them than every time its pulled out to be used- feel it.

Good to hear your carrying it!
As others have said, if it feels right for you, do it. If not, Don't. Your the only one that can choose your preferences. :thumbup:

G.
(trying not to :foot: while respectfully partially disagreeing with Jackknife... )

 

[Sword and Shield]

I have a hierarchy. Premium, mint pieces stay that way. Pieces of great value stay that way. However, if it's already worn, it can be used- I've put a good number of miles on a 1910-1920 LF&C hawkbill and a 1920s Remington Scout.

 

[BJE]

I tend to be a user. I am carrying my grandfather's Old Timer 8OT stockman right now. It is the best example of Schrade cutlery I have seen, the fit surpasses that of my Case's, that is why I like to carry it, I get a connection with my grandpaw that is now gone and it is an awesome knife. I would definately use that Ulster.

 

[Rick]

I have a hierarchy. Premium, mint pieces stay that way. Pieces of great value stay that way.However, if it's already worn, it can be used...

That seems to be more or less the consensus, and it's a sensible compromise; one I plan to adopt.


I've thought a lot about the insightful responses in this thread, and I realized that my interest in antique slippy collecting began around twenty years ago - well after I was set in my ways as a user of modern lightweight liner-locks. Every old slip-joint I bought was in pretty good shape, and it went straight into the display case. The thought of actually using any of these *quaint* antiques never really crossed my mind:

No pocket clip? It'll just sit there, on its side, at the bottom of my pocket :grumpy:.

No thumb-stud? I have to drop what I'm doing and use two hands to open and close the blade? :grumpy:

No carbon fiber and titanium? A decent sized knife weighs a ton, and the bone will crack if I drop it! :grumpy:

No lock? Are you kidding? I might actually cut myself! :grumpy:

Carbon steel? That stuff rusts if you use harsh language around it! :grumpy:

But after hanging around the 'Traditional' board for a while, I finally started to get it, and now I'm hooked on the idea of taking the time to appreciate the novel ergonomics, walk 'n talk, and handling care that are all part of actually using a slip-joint on a day to day basis.

I owe a lot that new found appreciation to you guys.

And I found another 'user' in my collection : a little Keen Kutter Whittler whose main blade has seen a stone many times in days gone by. I've used it several times already and I'm diggin' it .

 

[Rick]

Interesting dilemma you have there. I personally don't think that a person who owns a vintage knife owes a duty to anyone but himself. If he owns the knife, he owns the knife...period. He doesn't need to conserve it for future generations, if he wants to make it a user it's his prerogative. After all it's not like the whole world will later get to fondle and enjoy that mint knife, only a handful of collectors will ever get to touch it.

I understand this side of your comment, but for the sake of discussion, what about - for example - a private collector who owns an historically significant painting by one of the old masters? Isn't the owner obligated to protect it from exposure to UV and moisture, etc? I know - a painting isn't a tool to be used, but after a century or so, doesn't a mint antique knife cease to be a mere tool and become a fragile and finite part of history, and as such, a thing that transcends mere ownership? I think so.

 

[Rick]

Rick, I want to thank you for asking an interesting and relevant question! The fact that you recognize there may be an obligation is refreshing and encouraging to me. If everything in human events were done in a thoughtful manner, this world would run much more smoothly, and we would have a proud legacy for our children's children.
The fact that the subject of pocketknives is only a small part of all things we engage in doesn't matter as much as the manner we engage with it. It reflects our attitude. Preserving examples of the golden age of cutlery, will provide inspiration for those who follow us, because they show us what beauty and usefulness combined, can be like.
I look at a mint example of a knife that is 80 or 120 years old, or I use one that is the same age, and each provides a different form of pleasure and pride.
Watching a knife age and mellow, shows me the value of the quality put into that knife in the first place. But seeing it as the artisans deemed it complete, proudly presented in freshly minted condition, is a fragile thing. Use it, sharpen it, and history is lost.
As a collector, I feel an obligation to preserve the results of that proud era of knife making. And as a collector, I have a hundred beautiful used knives to carry and use.
It would be the epitome of conceit, and largely stupid to take my mint ones, sharpen 'em all up, and tote 'em around.
There is a place for preserving history, and for contemplating it. I collect knives to savor and preserve that history. I hope we all know what happens when we ignore history!!
But being part of the aging process is one of the pleasures of this game we play also. I would carry and use that Ulster with pleasure. And I would savor the fact that the Dwight Devine kept making beautiful knives, at a loss, rather than compromise his ideals!

Excellent post! Much appreciated.

 

[kamagong]

I understand this side of your comment, but for the sake of discussion, what about - for example - a private collector who owns an historically significant painting by one of the old masters? Isn't the owner obligated to protect it from exposure to UV and moisture, etc? I know - a painting isn't a tool to be used, but after a century or so, doesn't a mint antique knife cease to be a mere tool and become a fragile and finite part of history, and as such, a thing that transcends mere ownership? I think so.

That is an excellent point. But where do you draw the line? Several members here are proud owners of Tony Bose customs. I have no doubt that in 50 years or so people will be talking about Tony Bose as one of the greatest slipjoint makers that ever lived. His knives will be considered masterpieces and will no doubt command high prices, especially for the mint examples. Are you telling me that those people who own a Bose slipjoint have an obligation not to use them, and to preserve them for the future? I don't think you can go that far, especially since Tony himself has said that he hopes every knife he builds will be put to use. As you can see, it's a very tricky question, and I don't know what the right answer is.

 

[Rick]

But where do you draw the line?

That's exactly the question I asked when starting the thread.

Right now, you can easily acquire several brand-spankin'-new Bose knives from a variety of on-line dealers (assuming you can cough up the dough). Tony and Reese are building more knives on a full-time basis, and hopefully, they'll continue to do so for years to come. I have no doubt that they're intended by their makers to be used; that's part of the mystique, though I wonder how many people are able to justify really using a $3000 pocketknife. Must be nice!

Now go on-line and try to find a century-old (give or take a decade or three), high quality factory slip-joint with its original finish intact. They're out there, but they're rare as hen's teeth, and time isn't proving particularly kind to the remaining examples. Once they're gone, that's it. If we fail as caretakers now, future generations will be condemned to view the remaining examples of these wonderful old knives under glass in a museum.

 

[300Bucks]

Guys, I think the common sense approach here is still, Do Your Own Thing. I won't speak badly of someone who can afford to "use" a Bose if that is there thing. There are always gonna be enough collectors that almost any knife example you can name is being "conserved" by some collector, somewhere. More knives get throw out after deaths, sold to pawn shops, stolen by crooks who abuse them or destroy them, burnt up in housefires than will be lost to history by caring and skilled knife men who use them well.

I have a $300+ one of two known salesman samples slipjoint Buck knife. I am not going to use it , I don't care what anybody says. For, someday I will sell it to another collector who will have to afford to buy it at its value then. I carry a $100 Stag hanlded Buck because I love the look of old pivot pin oil, golden colored stag and by golly I CAN afford to carry a $100 knife, but carefully. Not in a canoe or crawling around in the attic amid the insulation......all anyone has is the obligation to themselves. Am I doing the right thing in my situation. Am I being a GOOD Scout.
Use or not, more power to those who can, history will be protected by aplenty of those who don't.
300bucks

 

[kamagong]

Let me ask you this Rick. Say for example that a person owns a 100-year-old pristine IXL sailor’s knife with gorgeous stag handles. I think that most everyone here would agree that said beauty is a treasure, a fine example of English cutlery that is no longer made. Some people may think that the best way to pay homage to the cutler who made this fine knife is to hop on the nearest boat and put it to work. I gather that you on the other hand would consider this selfish and wasteful and that you and other collectors have a duty to preserve this knife for future generations. If you are correct about this, that pristine old knives should be preserved, doesn’t the current caretaker of an old knife also have the additional duty of sharing his collection with the world? Shouldn’t the person who owns these rare old slipjoints show them to other enthusiasts (e.g., posting them on forums like these), instead of just keeping them in a safe to be fondled only occasionally. If the collector doesn’t share these treasures, isn’t that collector being selfish?

 

[Rick]

Let me ask you this Rick. Say for example that a person owns a 100-year-old pristine IXL sailor’s knife with gorgeous stag handles. I think that most everyone here would agree that said beauty is a treasure, a fine example of English cutlery that is no longer made. Some people may think that the best way to pay homage to the cutler who made this fine knife is to hop on the nearest boat and put it to work. I gather that you on the other hand would consider this selfish and wasteful and that you and other collectors have a duty to preserve this knife for future generations.

Right. I think the way to pay homage to the cutler would have been to use the knife as intended, back when the knife was a relatively common commodity. Now that it has managed to soldier-on unscathed into our time and become a rare antique, it has earned a place in history.

If you are correct about this, that pristine old knives should be preserved, doesn’t the current caretaker of an old knife also have the additional duty of sharing his collection with the world? Shouldn’t the person who owns these rare old slipjoints show them to other enthusiasts (e.g., posting them on forums like these), instead of just keeping them in a safe to be fondled only occasionally. If the collector doesn’t share these treasures, isn’t that collector being selfish?

That's another good point, and I do try to share them with others, both on-line and in person, but simply acknowledging a caretaker obligation for a rare and fragile antique is an important step whether they're on public display or squirreled away in a safe. We're only here for a short time, while the old knives under our care can last for centuries. I'll consider my obligation fulfilled if they're in the same condition they were in when I acquired them, when I'm ready (or not) to check-out.

 

[malextwo]

What I've started doing - hating to use the old classics in my collection, is to store them, and use the moderately priced customs as edc.

Mike

 

[300Bucks]

Kama,

Hoarding from the world, never sharing, never showing, setting in small dark room hidden from the world, laughing at all of us because we can't see or touch.......Bad Scout.

Using carefully, special guarding from loss or damage. Collecting but sharing knowledge,photos and taking to shows....Good Scout

300Bucks

 

[4ever3]

But after hanging around the 'Traditional' board for a while, I finally started to get it, and now I'm hooked on the idea of taking the time to appreciate the novel ergonomics, walk 'n talk, and handling care that are all part of actually using a slip-joint on a day to day basis.

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