"Old Knives"

[navihawk]

Charlie, how does the cap lifter work on that knife without closing the blade?
Nevermind, I was reading the wrong lines.

 

[4ever3]

Another fine group of knives Charlie, but those old Coke Bottles are out standing !!!

Thank you for the PERMA-LUBE explanation, I think I have a copy of that add in an old book, I'll look for it this weekend.

 

[CNoyes]

Thanks everyone for your kind remarks.
There's not much sense in collecting and preserving something if you're not going to share it with others.
I don't get to display at knife shows much any more. I thought this Traditional Folders Forum and this particular thread an apt opportunity to do so.
I'm enjoying this.

NaviHawk, I guess you realized it's a locked blade when opened. It does look funny though. You'd think putting the cap-lifter on the underside would have been more practical.

Jeremy, the only book I know of that illustrates PERMA-LUBE knives and/or a catalog ad page is Dewey and Lavona Ferguson's The Romance of Collecting Cattaraugus, Russell, Robeson and Queen Pocketknives. (that title might not be word for word correct)

 

[CNoyes]

How about some two blade pen knives and senators?

These first few do not have marked pattern numbers. Some pre-date
the numbering system and some just don't have pattern numbers on
them for whatever reason. Some are special order advertising knives
with a corporate logo.

First is this little pearl handled sleeveboard shadow made for the old
Cities Service gasoline stations company.
It has a spear master and pen, a bail and the Cities Service logo
as a shield.
It is in excellent unsharpened condition.

This nice bone handled two blade box knife has a spear master blade
and a cap-lifter/screw-driver/nail-puller secondary blade.
The federal shield is marked, "SHIELDS". I have no idea who that
might have been. A tobacco or chocolate company, maybe?
It's in very good condition.

Here's little bone handled pen knife with stainless steel blades and Robeson's
NO-RUSTAIN shield. The background of the shield was originally blue.
The master pen is etched, "RUSTLESS - STAINLESS".
The knife is in excellent unsharpened condition.

This Robeson marked knife has a Girl Scouts trefoil shield in the handle,
"GIRL SCOUTS" etched on the master blade with the trefoil GS logo
between the two words, a spey secondary blade, less than normally
strong backspring and a bail.
There is no documentation of Robeson ever having a contract to produce
knives for the Girl Scouts of America. Yet, the knives exist. I know of
three other examples.
This one is the best condition knife of the four. It is in excellent
unsharpened condition.

This is a tiny 1 7/8" swell-center pearl handled shadow pen with the same blade in both ends.
It's in excellent unsharpened condition.

This little German silver sleeveboard totem pole pen is a bit unusual. I've seen two others.
It has a bail.
Excellent condition.

This German silver oval pen advertises the Goss Printing Press Co. They made big printing presses for newspaper and magazine companies.
Very good condition.

Here's a nice pearl handled Shriner's crown pen knife with bail and Shriner's emblem.
Pattern number 723747.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

A pearl handled equal-end PocketEze pen
Pattern number 723417.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

A fancy pearl equal-end crown pen.
Pattern number 723587.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

A pearl sleeveboard shadow with bail.
Pattern number 723317.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

A serpentine pearl handled PocketEze pen.
Pattern number 722458.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This little oddball pen knife might have been a salesman sample knife.
It has one regular style bolster on the top end a tip bolster on the bottom.
The master pen blade is etched within an oval, "POCKETEZE".
Pearl handles on both sides.
Pattern number 722448.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This elegant pearl handled sleeveboard shadow pen knife
has fancy script etching on both sides celebrating a
Masonic Lodge No. 15, in Camden (?Ohio).
Back side states 1821 - 1912.
Pattern number 722388.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This somewhat long slender equal-end pen knife has pearl handles and spear and pen blades.
Pattern number 722380.
I've seen this handle-die shape as a three blade bone handled whittler, as well.
Excellent condition.

This equal-end pearl handled pen knife has a master spear and secondary pen.
Pattern number 722320.
Excellent condition.

This pearl handled gunstock pen has a master spear and secondary pen.
Pattern number 722362.
Very good condition.

Here's an equal-end swell-center senator with pearl handles.
Pattern number 722305.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This is a little 3" tip bolstered pearl handled pen knife.
Pattern number 722167-1/2. The "1/2" indicates some variation from the
standard pattern, probably the nail file as opposed to a pen blade.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This little 3" humpback pen has pearl handles.
Pattern number 722110.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This tiny slim congress pattern pen knife has pearl handles, a sheepfoot master and secondary pen.
Pattern number 722159. I've seen this pattern with pick bone handles.
Excellent condition.

This equal-end pen has pearl handles.
Pattern number 722105.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

 

[waynorth]

The variation in those pens is wonderful, Charlie! Such nice examples makes it seem like Robeson is nearby, just around the corner, instead of long gone!
The greenish tint and jig on the GS knife reminds me of some of Camillus' bone handles.

 

[CNoyes]

This Wharncliffe pearl is the same handle-die shape as the stag handled whittler I posted earlier.
Pattern number 722008.
Excellent condition.

This stainless knife has the RUSTLESS-STAINLESS blade etch and an oval shield on its brown bone handles.
Pattern number 629105
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This is basically the same knife as above, but it has no etch and does
have the NO-RUSTAIN shield. Brown bone handles.
Pattern number the same, 629105.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This nice dark brown bone handled congress has a sheepfoot master and
secondary pen. It has the PocketEze shield.
Pattern number 623777.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This brown bone handled PocketEze pen has two pen blades.
Pattern number 623501.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This serpentine brown bone PocketEze pen has a slim Wharncliffe type master blade.
Pattern number 623405.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This is the same knife with ivoroid celluloid handles.
It has flush blades, but not the PocketEze shield.
Pattern number 823405.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This is a brown bone PocketEze pen knife with a spear master blade.
Pattern number 622416.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This knife is the same pattern, but with differences. The master has a swedge cut.
The knife above does not.
There is a nail nick in the frame and handle for the secondary blade, not so
on the knife above.
Pattern number 623416-85.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

Nice brown bone equal-end pen knife. Bar shield.
Pattern number 622255.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

Congress pattern knife with brown bone handles and arc shield.
Pattern number 622193.
Excellent condition.

An equal-end, swell center pen knife with brown bone handles and bar shield.
Pattern number 622035.
Excellent condition.

Brown bone sleeveboard.
Pattern number 622022.
Excellent unsharpened condition.

This equal-end pen has a pen master and a flexible finger nail file as a
secondary. The file is just like the ones your wife buys at the pharmacy.
Pattern number 622003-1/2.
Excellent unsharpened, unfiled condition.

A double-sided "THINK OF US" self advertising nickel-silver pen knife, touting
"THE ROBESON CUTLERY CO." on one side and
"ROCHESTER STAMPING CO." on the other.
Pattern number 020439.
Very good condition.

An Art Nuveau equal-end pen knife advertising
THE ROBESON CUTLERY CO. ROCHESTER, N. Y.
Pattern number 020311.
Excellent condition.

An ivory celluloid handled pen knife with "ShurEdge" etched into one handle and
"MILWAUKEE 1905" into the other.
Pattern number 423192.
Excellent condition.
(Anyone have any idea what was going on in Milwaukee in 1905?)

Whew!

 

[CNoyes]

Thanks, Charlie.
Everything about the GS knife says 1930's to me.
One scout knife collecting book stated that Robeson submitted fifty of the knives in the 1940's.
If you consider that Remington had stopped making knives at the beginning of WWII,
I guess that might be possible.
The stamp is ROBESON / ShurEdge / ROCHESTER, which is a pre-WWII stamp.
The bone is 1930's bone.
I wonder, but don't have an inkling of proof, if Robeson did not just complete an order for Remington.
Who knows? I know I don't.
The knife has been called a "fake" on one occasion. However, every scout collector I've shown it to
has offered to buy it. That includes Dennis Ellingson.
Like I said, there are at least four of them out there. They're all identical, except for their condition.
This particular knife was found in a drawer of a bedside table at an estate sale. But, not by me. I do,
however, know and trust the picker that did find it.

 

[navihawk]

Their numbering system seems to be similar to case.

 

[CNoyes]

This is a bit long. If it's not appropriate for this thread, let me know and I'll severely edit or delete it, if possible.
C.N.


Pattern Numbering System

The basic pattern number consists of six digits. Think of them
as two sets of numbers of three digits each. The first three digits
relate to the knife's construction materials. The first digit refers to
the handle material. The second digit refers to the number of blades
in the knife. The third digit refers to the material composition of the
bolsters and liners of the knife. The last three digits are the
designated number of a particular handle-die shape, or the individual
style of a particular knife. When Robeson began numbering their
knives, they started with 001. They continued to number the knives
up into the 900's. As older styles of knives were discontinued
because that type knife no longer had a market, they reassigned
that knife's number to a new style of knife. One example of that is
a swell-end, two blade "Harness Jack" with a spear master blade and
a leather punch and the handle-die number
382. With the invention of the automobile, and the power tractor,
the use of horses and therefore horse harnesses, greatly diminished.
They discontinued the Harness Jack. They later reassigned that
number to a relatively modern and very attractive two blade
Trapper pattern.
One will find Robeson knives with only a five digit pattern number.
This occurred for one reason. If the handle-die shape number was
between 010 and 099, sometimes the first position zero was dropped
from the pattern number, creating a five digit number. The number
was actually still the same, if one continues to treat the numbers
as two separate sets of numbers.
For instance, if a 626056 regular jack was marked, 62656, the
number is the same and should be read as, "626 / 56" and the longer
number as, "626 / 056".
Most of the examples of five digit numbers occurred on knives
with smaller master blades where a six digit number did not fit well.

During the 1950's, Robeson imported some German made
pocketknives. All the examples I've seen had four digit pattern
numbers. An example is a six blade utility knife, much like some
Swiss Army Knife patterns, and has the number, 4864.

Knives will be seen with a suffix added to the pattern number.
"1/2" and "1-2" are the same, and mean "One-Half". I've noticed
that usually occurs on knives that normally have a clip master blade,
but instead have a spear master blade, or some other variant of
blade configuration. Tom Kalcevic, in Knives Can Talk,
states that knives with an added bail carry the suffix, as well.
Other suffixes I've seen are 50, 85, 100, 125, and 250.
I do not know enough to know what they mean, exactly.

The first digit of the Robeson pattern number denotes handle material.
The known numbers are as follows:

0 = Metal (Aluminum, nickel-silver or Stainless Steel)

1 = Ebony, Black Cocobola Wood, or Black Composition

2 = Rosewood, or Walnut

3 = Slick Black Composition

4 = Ivory Celluloid

5 = Saw Cut Bone, Genuine Stag, Saw Cut Delrin, or Gold-Filled Metal

6 = Genuine Bone, Jigged Rough Black Plastic, Jigged Delrin Imitation
Bone

7 = Genuine Pearl or Abalone

8 = Single Colored or Multi-Colored Patterned Celluloid, other than black
or ivory

9 = Imitation Pearl Celluloid, Christmas Tree Celluloid, ShurWood, or
Gun Metal

C = Older Celluloid Knives

G = Gold

The oldest Robeson knives have green bone handles, followed
by brown bone with different qualities of dies and jigging patterns,
then the famous strawberry bone of the 1950's.

The second digit of the Robeson Pattern number denotes the
number of blades. The known numbers are 1 through 6.

The third digit of the Robeson pattern number denotes the material
composition or combination of materials used for the liners and bolsters.
The known numbers are as follows:

0 = Combination Handle, Liners, and Bolsters

1 = Steel Liners and Bolsters

2 = Brass Liners and Nickle-Silver Bolsters

3 = Nickle-Silver Liners and Bolsters

4 = Not known, but seen on at least two knives, one a 234322
take apart slot knife.

5 = Special

6 = Again, Brass Liners and Nickle-Silver Bolsters

8 = Integral Nickle-Silver Liners and Bolsters

9 = Stainless Steel Liners and Bolsters

Now, let's look at that 626056 pattern knife I mentioned earlier.
The knife under discussion is a 3 3/4" regular jack knife.
The first digit, 6, denotes bone handles, or possibly jigged rough
black plastic or jigged Delrin imitation bone, depending on when
the knife was manufactured. The second digit, 2, denotes two
blades. In the case of this particular pattern, there is a clip master
blade and a large pen secondary blade. The third digit, 6, denotes
brass liners and nickle-silver bolsters. The last three digits, 056, is
the designated Robeson number for that particular 3 3/4" regular jack.

Simple, Huh?

 

[sunnyd]

. . . . . . Simple, Huh?

Quite!

But seriously, it is I believe a very detailed and well thought out system. :thumbup: Thank You very kindly for the explanation!. I have also been thoroughly enjoying each and every one of your knife displays here as of late way more than I can say.


Thank you kindly,
Anthony

 

[zerogee]

IIRC, Robeson's Terrier line used the same numbering system but reversed the order of the two sets of three digits, so the pattern number came first, then the three digits for handle material/# of blades/bolster-liner material.

Loving these great Robesons Charlie! Beyond the great old Sheffield folders, my secondary collecting interest is the pre-1940 Robesons, especially the PocketEze line (though very few of mine come anywhere close to the quality of yours).

-- Dwight

 

[CNoyes]

Thanks, once again everyone, for the positive comments. I'm having a good time posting these knives here. This is the most active I've ever been on BladeForums.

Zerogee, you are correct about the Terrier line having the two sets of numbers reversed.

I'm going to post some Terrier knives below.

Terriers are my most favorite knives.

 

[CNoyes]

Terrier was a premium brand made and distributed by Robeson between
1910 and 1916, just a six year period.

Really nice Terriers are difficult to find.

As ZeroGee stated, the two three digit groups of numbers in the Robeson
six digit pattern numbers on Terrier Knives were reversed.
Therefore a Robeson pattern number like 832/002 became 002/832 and
722/083 became 083/722 as illustrated in the first two examples of Terrier knives below.
Not all Terriers have pattern numbers. Most do, however, have
an image of an American-Staffordshire terrier's head on the back of at
least one blade.
Some knives have "Terrier Brand" etched on the face of the master blade,
sometimes with the terrier's head between the two words.

Here's the above mentioned 002 / 832 tortoise handled whittler. I've been told
this is genuine tortoise, but I don't know. Given the dates 1910 - 1916, I
suppose it's possible.
I've recently acquired a pearl handled version of this pattern, but have
not photograhed it.
The knife is 3 1/4" long. It is in excellent patinaed condition.

Here's the 083 / 722 pearl handled dog leg jack.
It's 2 3/4" long.
It's in excellent condition.

This is a 3 3/4" brown bone handled heavy dog leg jack.
Pattern number 089622.
The knife is in excellent condition.

This 3 5/8" sleeveboard has nice worm-grooved brown bone handles.
The pattern number is 102622.
The knife is in excellent unsharpened condition.

This 3 5/8" four blade scout/utilty showed up on Ebay, but was only there
for 30 minutes before I bought it with the Buy-It-Now option.
It has really nice brown bone handles and a "CAMPERS" shield.
Pattern number 214642
It's in excellent unsharpened condition.

This 3 7/8" serpentine stockman has pretty, but worn jigged tan bone
handles.
Pattern number 217632.
It is in good to very good condition.

This little pearl handled jack is 2 7/16" long.
Pattern number 236722.
It is in excellent unsharpened condition.

This exquisite 3 5/8" Bull Head Double-Ended Jack has nice worm-grooved
brown bone handles.
This knife is one of two that came out of an old hardware store stock room.
Pattern number 243622.
It has some salesman sample numbering on the back of the master blade.
It is in excellent unsharpened condition. Look at the glaze finish on the back
of the left hand spey blade. It is crocus polished on the other side, just like
the front of the right hand clip blade.

This little 3 1/8" swell-center equal-end pen knife has bronze colored onyx
celluloid handles.
Pattern number 307C22. The "C" stands for celluloid.
It's in very good condition.

This is the other knife from the old hardware store stock room.
It is a 3 5/16" Equal-End, Double-Ended, Bull Head Jack.
Nice brown bone handles and oval shield.
It does not have a pattern number.
It is in excellent unsharpened condition.

This wooden handled jack is 3 3/8" long.
It has no pattern number.
It's in excellent condition.

This heavy jack has dark tortoise celluloid handles.
The master clip is etched, "TERRIER * BRAND" with the dog's head between
the two words.
There is no pattern number.
It is in excellent unsharpened condition.

Here's a single spear bladed 3 3/8" Barlow with brown saw-cut bone handles.
It has no pattern number.
It is in excellent condition.

This is a truly rare knife. It is the only example of which I am aware. I'm not
saying it's unique, just rare.
I've never seen or heard of another Terrier knife with these "TCC" bolsters.
The knife is the usual 3 3/8" Barlow length.
It has no pattern number.
It is in excellent condition.

This is an interesting 3" hump back pearl handled whittler.
The master spear is etched, "TERRIER BRAND".
It has no pattern number.
It is in excellent unsharpened condition.

This nice harness jack is 3 3/8" long. It has worm-grooved brown bone
handles and a bar shield.
The punch has Robeson's patent date APR 5, 05.
It has no pattern number.
It's in excellent condition.

This is a large cocobola handled two part slot knife with knife, fork and spoon.
Pattern number 234322.
It is in excellent condition.

Remember, all the Terrier knives were manufactured between 1910 and 1916.
They will all soon be centenarians.

 

[navihawk]

This is great stuff. I've never heard of Terrier brand, let alone they were Robesons.

 

[Berkley]

The picture of the double-ended jack showing the crocus and glaze finishes is an education in itself. Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful collection.
Berk

 

[Blues]

"Wow" is about all I've got at the moment! :thumbup:

 

[zerogee]

Charlie, regarding real tortoise shell scales -- a good check is to compare the mark and pile side scales for the amount of the gold/amber patterning present. If the mark side has somewhat more of the gold/amber than the pile side, it's a solid indication that it's real tortoise shell (it was precious and hard to get stuff even then - they used the showier material on the mark side -- short of Exhibition grade knives, this seems to always hold true). If mark and pile side are equally showy (lots of the gold/amber), it's most likely celluloid. Of course, if it has wormholes in it, you *know* it's real, unfortunately.

Edit to add: also, you'll see real tortoise shell scales where both sides are the darker, less showy material - it's having showy scales on both sides that's the "tell" for tortoise celluloid.

-- Dwight

 

[CNoyes]

Thanks Anthony, Steve, Berk and Elliot. I'm glad you enjoyed those.

Steve, you'd be surprised to learn how many knife people, dealers included,
are unaware of the actual ages of Terrier knives and some knives with the
older Robeson stamps.

Dwight, I'll take a look at the tortoise whittler and see if the pile side is less
ornate in its patterning. I'd like for it to be genuine tortoise. That would minimize,
I think, the possibility of out-gassing.:barf:

 

[Mike Robuck]

Amazing collection and tons of great information. Charlie. Thanks!

Dwight, never heard that about tortoise before, but now I feel better about the scales not matching on this knife. (Got a crack on the nicer side.)

On with the show...

 

[JatMat]

What a collection, I am no longer calling myself a collector, I am a misguided accumulator.
Thanks for sharing Charlie,
Jim
BTW: More Please.