Old Wakizashi

[Hesparus]

I think I'm in the minority here. I have a wakizashi that is 400-500 years old that needs some restoring. I would trust bladsmith to do it without hesitation (if I could afford it, I mean). Yes, there is a lot more to know about togi, but for most people's needs, what he can do will more than suffice. You're talking to a master craftsman of a caliber that is very rare in this world.

- Chris

p.s. I also would have loved to see the blade.

 

[SShepherd]

and you would also be ruining it's value, to a collector.

 

[Kohai999]

I think I'm in the minority here. I have a wakizashi that is 400-500 years old that needs some restoring. I would trust bladsmith to do it without hesitation (if I could afford it, I mean). Yes, there is a lot more to know about togi, but for most people's needs, what he can do will more than suffice. You're talking to a master craftsman of a caliber that is very rare in this world.

- Chris

It is your option of course....but there is a foul Western philosophy that runs counter to the way the blades are perceived in Japan...that is "it is my sword, and I'll do what I want with it".

It's bullshit is what it is. Any DECENT sword from Japan is something of an artform, so revered by the Japanese as to be considered one of the Three Treasures(items of national pride, history and priceless worth).

A good 400-500 year old blade has a story to tell, and you are the guardian of that blade, you don't own it....you are it's caretaker.....properly taken care of, that sword will outlive you by hundreds of years.

That is one position.

Another position is that a decent blade should be "papered"......The Occupation of Japan and its regulations almost put an end to the production of Japanese swords. A few smiths continued their trade, and Dr. Honma went on to be a founder of the Society for the Preservation of the Japanese Sword, Nippon Bijutsu Tōken Hozon Kyōkai(NBTHK), made it their mission to preserve the old techniques and blades. Thanks to the efforts of other like-minded individuals, the nihontō did not disappear, many swordsmiths continued the work begun by Masahide, and the old swordmaking techniques were rediscovered. The NBTHK will only paper certain swords, because that seal of approval carries both worth, and gravity. Only a papered sword may be legally owned in Japan.

Of course, do what you want. It doesn't matter if something is "right" or "wrong" to many people, and it is easy to claim ignorance as an excuse.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Lee Bray]

Yes, there is a lot more to know about togi, but for most people's needs, what he can do will more than suffice.

I think you mean 'wants' as opposed to "needs".

I have no doubt bladsmith is a good craftsman but he said himself - he has no idea of age, school or maker.
That being the case, how can he restore the sword to what it is supposed to be?
He can make it shiny...that isn't Japanese sword polishing.

You're destroying another cultures history for the sake of tarting something up.
Perhaps ignorantly but with the wealth of internet information available that really is no excuse.

 

[Kohai999]

I'd like to add a few more thoughts, for the general edification of anyone reading.

Genuine and sought after blades from even as recent as 100 years ago can fetch staggering sums of money. A BRAND NEW katana blade from Yoshindo Yoshihara, a Japanese Living Treasure can easily run $20,000, of course with a polish and shira saya....but even at that, you would not be able to DO anything with the blade, because it would need about $5,000 more in mountings and mounting labor(fitting and wrapping the handle, lacquering the scabbard....) this isn't chump change.

I don't OWN ANY antique Japanese swords(one fatally flawed machine made Gunto, but that doesn't count, lol).....I'm a practitioner, not a sword studier, and I use ALL my blades....HAVE studied hundreds of nihonto blades, antiques and modern alike, by some of the best makers and polishers for 12 years, and I don't know crap...so I avoid temptation and the possibility of damaging something that is completely irreplaceable....and own American made Japanese style swords by Howard Clark, Bailey Bradshaw, Dan Maragni and J.D. Smith.....those get used, as do the NUMBER of CAS Hanwei swords that I own.

An analogy

If I was a Colt single action collector, and wanted to get one refinished, I would go to Doug Turnbull, who is arguably one of the best in the business. He charges $1,800 and up(quickly) for refinishing, and these are his thoughts:

"The thought of restoring old guns to original condition has long been considered unacceptable. It was believed that tampering with an original gun would detract from its value, even if time and heavy use had taken its toll. No one could possibly duplicate the original finishes let alone the quality and craftsmanship of the original guns, or maybe people consider it a sign of disrespect to disturb the work of the original craftsmen.

Turnbull Mfg. Co. is committed to honoring the original gun makers by returning these guns to their original beauty. Restoration of firearms involves a great deal of knowledge, skill, patience and a keen eye for detail. When done correctly, restoration can provide a look into the past as well as preserving an important piece of history.

Careful polish work, hand checkering and rust bluing are just some of the key steps in restoration work.

When someone asks if restoration will affect the value of the firearm, remind them that The Statue of Liberty, The Washington Monument, The Star Spangled Banner and The Charter of Freedom (Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence) have all undergone restoration efforts. Does restoring these pieces of American history diminish their value or significance in our country's history?

We hope the original gun makers would be proud to see these guns being preserved for future generations. The craftsmen at Turnbull Mfg. Co. are dedicated to continuing the great gun making tradition in this country."

Japanese polishers approach the blades they work on with the same level of knowledge, history and technique.....but it is SO much more complex, because each maker, school and sword are so vastly different, the knowledge base takes years to develop.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[shirogane]

Only a papered sword may be legally owned in Japan.


Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Not true. All swords in Japan must be registered and receive a "torokusho" which is a registration card, or license. It must be carried with the sword at all times. It has nothing to do with "papers", known as kantei-sho.

Swords may be submitted to organizations like the NBTHK or NTHK which will issue a kantei-sho, or appraisal certificate, if deemed worthy.

 

[Kohai999]

Not true. All swords in Japan must be registered and receive a "torokusho" which is a registration card, or license. It must be carried with the sword at all times. It has nothing to do with "papers", known as kantei-sho.

Swords may be submitted to organizations like the NBTHK or NTHK which will issue a kantei-sho, or appraisal certificate, if deemed worthy.

You may take umbrage at the word "papered", rather than "registered"....but the bottom line is that one way or the other, certain manifest qualities must be involved for a sword to be legally owned in Japan.

Are you a practitioner, maker or what?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[SShepherd]

Not true. All swords in Japan must be registered and receive a "torokusho" which is a registration card, or license. It must be carried with the sword at all times. It has nothing to do with "papers", known as kantei-sho.

Swords may be submitted to organizations like the NBTHK or NTHK which will issue a kantei-sho, or appraisal certificate, if deemed worthy.

it sure sounds like "papers" to me, especially in the context of being legally owned. Stevens post said nothing about appraisal certificates.
"Only a papered sword may be legally owned in Japan."

 

[Kohai999]

it sure sounds like "papers" to me, especially in the context of being legally owned. Stevens post said nothing about appraisal certificates.
"Only a papered sword may be legally owned in Japan."

Here are the specifics for anyone interested:

In order to legally own a sword in Japan it has to be registered in accordance with the Ju-tô-hô (Japanese Firearms and Sword Law). This applies to both antique and newly made swords(Shinsakutô). Exempted are blades under 15 cm (5.9 inches), and Iaitô / Mogitô (training)and decorative swords made from a zinc-aluminum alloy that can't be sharpened). Presently about 2.3 million swords are registered in Japan.
The certificate / license issued - Juhô-tôken-rui-tôrokushô -(in short"Tôrokushô") has to stay with the sword at all times. Most collectors attach it to theShirasaya-bukoro or Koshirae-bukoro (storage bags). It's the blade that is registered, not the owner; however, the Prefectural Education Board (Kyôiku-inkai) has to be notified within 20 days if there is a change of ownership, using the Shoyûsha-henkô-todokesho form.
Licensing is done by the Education Board at a Tôroku-shinsa-kaijô (sword evaluation meeting), which usually takes place once a month. The judges conducting the Shinsa are sword experts contracted by the Education Board, usually senior members of the local NBTHK branch (Nippon Bijutsu Tôken Hozon Kyôkai= Society for the preservation of the Japanese Art Sword).

If someone who lives in Japan finds an unregistered sword (which happens surprisingly often, for instance after the death of a family member who hid it after the war, or when an old house is torn
down), the finder has to contact the crime-prevention section of the district police (Keisatsu-shobohan-ka). There a Hakken-todoke is issued to enable the finder to attend the Tôroku-shinsa.

It should be noted that the Tôrokushô is not a certificate of authenticity; only the length, Sori, number of Mekugi-ana and the Mei (name inscribed) are stated, whether it's authentic (Shôshin
) or false (Gimei).

Only traditionally made Nihontô can be licensed, i.e. swords made in Japan from Tamahagane (and Shintô swords that are inscribed "Motte Namban-Tesu " ["made using steel
from the southern barbarians"]). This means in effect that it has to be either an antique, or made by a contemporary, licensed smith. Mass produced WWII swords (so called Shôwatô昭和&#20992
and foreign made swords are not eligible for Tôrokushô.

It is the word "shinsa" that is confusing, as it is used for both "Tôrokushô" issue AND for "Kanteisho".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[shirogane]

Among Japanese sword collectors in the West, saying a sword has "papers" has a specific connotation, that being kantei-sho from an organization like the NBTHK or NTHK. The registration card, or license, or torokusho, is never referred to as a "paper", either by collectors in the US or Japan.

In light of this usage among collectors, it would be better to use the term license, registration card, or torokusho, rather than "papers".

I have lived in japan for 13 or so years and have registered (and papered) too many swords to remember...

 

[Kohai999]

I have lived in japan for 13 or so years and have registered (and papered) too many swords to remember...

As I have found swords in Japan to be considerably more expensive than they are here in SoCal, you must be quite well-off.

Your corrections are duly noted.

Do you cut or are you a collector of swords, or both?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[shirogane]

I suppose I am primarily a collector but believe that to gain a full understanding of what a Japanese sword truly is, one must also have some practical experience using one, so I have a modest amount of training towards that end.....

 

[SShepherd]

I suppose I am primarily a collector but believe that to gain a full understanding of what a Japanese sword truly is, one must also have some practical experience using one, so I have a modest amount of training towards that end.....

lol, spoken like someone who has lived in japan for a while

So, what did you train in and where ?

 

[shirogane]

Toyama-ryu.....outskirts of Tokyo quite a few years ago.....like I said, it was a modest amount, only a year or so....

I also spent a lot of time with sword smiths and polishers. I have forged billets and quenched several blades, again, in keeping with my belief that if you want to really understand the Japanese sword, you need to take a multifaceted approach....

 

[Kohai999]

Toyama-ryu.....outskirts of Tokyo quite a few years ago.....like I said, it was a modest amount, only a year or so....

I also spent a lot of time with sword smiths and polishers. I have forged billets and quenched several blades, again, in keeping with my belief that if you want to really understand the Japanese sword, you need to take a multifaceted approach....

Thank you for humoring us with a direct answer, many do not.

The "only" Japanese smith that I have had the pleasure of spending any time with is Yoshindo Yoshihara...do very much wish that I had the access you do to others, including Yoshindo's son, Yoshikazu, and his brother, Shoji, who made one of the most breathtaking nambochuko style blades that I have ever seen.

What you have written is very true, I and am sure others, would be very interested in your observations in this subforum. There is something to the sights, sounds and smell of a traditional Japanese forge, the way the sparks fly, and the rhythmic pounding between master and apprentice that I have not seen in any Western style forges to this point.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[shirogane]

I have been to Yoshihara's a few times....I lived about 1 mile from a smith and spent uncountable hours watching and helping (?) him, his father, and brother, all smiths. It is one of my fondest memories....I visited the forges of a dozen or so smiths and agree that there is magic in them all....