On clones, by genre, a thesis

[Danke42]

Intellectual property is any innovation, commercial or artistic; any new method or formula with economic value; or any unique name, symbol, or logo that is used commercially. Intellectual property is protected by patents on inventions; trademarks on branded devices; copyrights on music, videos, patterns, and other forms of expression; and state and federal laws.

Stealing intellectual property is cheap and easy. All a thief has to do is copy someone else’s ideas or product. The other person or company—the victim—has done all the work, but thieves can reap huge profits. Intellectual property theft can cost people their jobs, damage the reputation of the original maker of the counterfeited product, cause sickness and bodily harm, deprive governments of desperately needed tax revenue, and even result in the spread of organized crime and gangs—which in turn can damage more lives and destroy neighborhoods. It isn’t a victimless crime

 

[copperheaded]

Intellectual property is any innovation, commercial or artistic; any new method or formula with economic value; or any unique name, symbol, or logo that is used commercially. Intellectual property is protected by patents on inventions; trademarks on branded devices; copyrights on music, videos, patterns, and other forms of expression; and state and federal laws.

Stealing intellectual property is cheap and easy. All a thief has to do is copy someone else’s ideas or product. The other person or company—the victim—has done all the work, but thieves can reap huge profits. Intellectual property theft can cost people their jobs, damage the reputation of the original maker of the counterfeited product, cause sickness and bodily harm, deprive governments of desperately needed tax revenue, and even result in the spread of organized crime and gangs—which in turn can damage more lives and destroy neighborhoods. It isn’t a victimless crime

Sigh

 

[Wilsonhome]

Never claimed to win the debate. People actually are arguing about subjective value. I do believe that all other arguments I have seen fail. Good for you for supporting "the people who put the hard work in designing their own knives, are open/honest to their customers, have materials you can trust, and have a warranty you can count on". Me too.

Copying is not theft:

Theft, in law, a general term covering a variety of specific types of stealing, including the crimes of larceny, robbery, and burglary. Theft is defined as the physical removal of an object that is capable of being stolen without the consent of the owner and with the intention of depriving the owner of it permanently.
theft | law | Britannica.com
https://www.britannica.com/topic/theft

Physical removal of an object, huh?

That is very good news. I think if i take these beats from this Jay-Z song i'm listening to and just use different words i can make a mint. Jay will still have his song & beats, so i'm not depriving him of it permanently. Good to know that is gonna be OK.

 

[copperheaded]

Physical removal of an object, huh?

That is very good news. I think if i take these beats from this Jay-Z song i'm listening to and just use different words i can make a mint. Jay will still have his song & beats, so i'm not depriving him of it permanently. Good to know that is gonna be OK.

If only that worked. If it is copyrighted, that is illegal. I don't support that. Just like I don't support stealing.

 

[Morrow]

No more mudslinging in this thread. Stay on topic or don't post.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Physical removal of an object, huh?

That is very good news. I think if i take these beats from this Jay-Z song i'm listening to and just use different words i can make a mint. Jay will still have his song & beats, so i'm not depriving him of it permanently. Good to know that is gonna be OK.

Umm, you do realize that most rappers do exactly as you say and take the beats and melodies from other peoples songs and put their own words in and make millions right? Its called sampling. For instance jay z's new album 4:4 uses a total of 11 samples ripped from other peoples music. Thats more than the album has songs. So if you take a beat from jay z he likely lifted it from someone else in the first place. Cover bands (hope you have heard of those) make money playing other peoples music as well.

 

[Wilsonhome]

Umm, you do realize that most rappers do exactly as you say and take the beats and melodies from other peoples songs and put their own word in and make millions right? For instance jay z's new album 4:4. Uses a total of 11 samples ripped from other peoples music. Thats more than the album has songs. So if you take beat from jay z he likely lifted it from someone else in the first place. Cover bands (hope you have heard of those) make money playing other peoples music as well.

Rappers have to pay for the samples they use, or they get sued. Cover bands are covered by performance licenses, which also cost money.

On topic, i am against counterfeits of all types and don't like clones, especially clones of recent designs that ride on the coattails of someone else's invention. Someone who could currently be suffering financially due to the design theft.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Rappers have to pay for the samples they use, or they get sued. Cover bands are covered by performance licenses, which also cost money.

On topic, i am against counterfeits of all types and don't like clones, especially clones of recent designs that ride on the coattails of someone else's invention.

No, they need to get permission. And just like counterfeiting and cloning many artists dont actually ask permission. Sometimes it leads to a lawsuit. Sometimes not. But people for sure dont always get permission to do so. Its a comparison you yourself brought up so it actually is on topic. And performance licenses are held by the venue holding the concert. And those licences need to be seeked from ascap or bmi usually. Most cover bands arent big enough to play venues large enough to even have to go through the process.

 

[Danke42]

If you want a knife and you only have X dollars to spend you can get a very good knife to suit any budget. If you like a particular custom maker but can't afford the table price then a lot of them will have production versions or other collaborations and at the end of the day if you still can't afford it well welcome to life. I want a Balboni but I know I'm not going to get one at this rate.

If you want a knife from a maker that you feel isn't worth what the market price is and instead you chose to buy a copy of said knife you'll dealing with a lot of cognitive dissonance that's difficult for us to un-package via forum posts. In plain English though you're very much in the wrong. Plus the ethical wrong the simple fact that dollars wasted on those fakes could have been spent on a better knife.

To the makers out there building their own knives by way of their own blood, sweat, and tears regardless of where you live or what country those knives are made in kudos to you. I may not like your products myself or feel a need to buy them but I will not disparage them or your customers.

To the makers and the shills out here who push clones, and copies and soft counterfeits as OK and no crime at all you're 100% wrong and you'll never get a moments rest on here till you've been pounded flat and shown the door.

 

[HST]

Clones or Homages are nothing more than mind rape. What if I took pictures of your children and significant other, changed the cheek bones, and stated they were my family. *insert sarcasm* Obviously, they're not your family, look at the cheek bones.

There's a reason some things cost what they do, so not everyone can have one. That's the exclusivity of the product. If you find yourself wanting to part of that club, save your money and be part of it, but don't be a poser.

The OP sounds like some guy on a replica watch forum trying to justify his mind rape. It's pathetic.

Most importantly, if $1-300 is such a big deal, keep that money and invest in a Roth IRA or something similar. You can thank me at retirement.

 

[PURPLEDC]

To the makers and the shills out here who push clones, and copies and soft counterfeits as OK and no crime at all you're 100% wrong and you'll never get a moments rest on here till you've been pounded flat and shown the door.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But so am I even if i may not be able to share all. And that is where you seem to not give any credit. I may have a difference of opinion when concerning clones. But i dont post videos, pictures or push any particular products nor do i ever cross the line as far as what can be posted. But as for pounding someone with my opinions flat until they are shown the door? Ive been here ten years (longer if you consider my lost profile) and ive prevented infinitely more people from being ripped off from clones than i have ever promoted. How is that? because of my experience with those clones. Maybe spend a little more than two years hear before you start trying to call the shots on who is going to be shown the door. While i have contributed my fair share to disruption here, ive also helped people whenever i can and that has been fairly often.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Clones or Homages are nothing more than mind rape. What if I took pictures of your children and significant other, changed the cheek bones, and stated they were my family. *insert sarcasm* Obviously, they're not your family, look at the cheek bones.

There's a reason some things cost what they do, so not everyone can have one. That's the exclusivity of the product. If you find yourself wanting to part of that club, save your money and be part of it, but don't be a poser.

The OP sounds like some guy on a replica watch forum trying to justify his mind rape. It's pathetic.

Most importantly, if $1-300 is such a big deal, keep that money and invest in a Roth IRA or something similar. You can thank me at retirement.

No its nothing like that. And in fact its pretty insulting to those who have been raped..... for real. Now I havent been personally raped. But thats also why I try not to make comparisons to to things in which i couldnt even begin to feel how they feel. Ive had my own ip stolen by most of your standards. And in no way would i ever compare it to being sexually violated through my skull.

 

[sabre cat]

Let's say Acme Knife & Tool is a CRK dealer but they also stock Sebenza clones. They are willing to give you a knife for free. No S&H cost. Nothing out of your pocket. Acme's only request is that you never give it away or sell it.
I'm curious, how many would take the knock off?

Palonej? Marcinek? What about you, Copperheaded? If every person involved with this thread was offered their choice of a clone or a real CRK Sebenza, I'd be willing to bet that EVERYONE would choose the real Sebenza over any clone. It would be crazy to do otherwise. Why? Because the real Sebenza is the better product. That claim can be made for many reasons, starting with CRK's reputation and customer service.

The same can be said for any knife that has been copied. Show me a knife that has been cloned, where the real thing is not considered better in some way. Better design, workmanship, materials, or something. People that manufacture clones are not going pick a poor product to copy.

 

[HST]

PURPLEDC I used the pronoun "mind" and used my words correctly in context. It had nothing to do with sexual assault victims.

I'm out of here, on to other things.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Let's say Acme Knife & Tool is a CRK dealer but they also stock Sebenza clones. They are willing to give you a knife for free. No S&H cost. Nothing out of your pocket. Acme's only request is that you never give it away or sell it.
I'm curious, how many would take the knock off?

Palonej? Marcinek? What about you, Copperheaded? If every person involved with this thread was offered their choice of a clone or a real CRK Sebenza, I'd be willing to bet that EVERYONE would choose the real Sebenza over any clone. It would be crazy to do otherwise. Why? Because the real Sebenza is the better product. That claim can be made for many reasons, starting with CRK's reputation and customer service.

The same can be said for any knife that has been copied. Show me a knife that has been cloned, where the real thing is not considered better in some way. Better design, workmanship, materials, or something. People that manufacture clones are not going pick a poor product to copy.

In general i agree with most of what you said. I would even take the genuine sebenza. But not because its the better knife. Dont get me wrong it is the better knife but I would choose it because it was the more valuable knife and would get me the most on the secondary market.

Now comparing clones or counterfeits to the originals its hard to make that call. Better in some cases may be relative to the person who is evaluating. For instance i have seen clones of an xm that imho were better than the real thing. I will only say this now because they are no longer made so I dont feel there is any reason to hold back. But that is my opinion and it is reflective of what i want in a knife. The reason i felt they were superior is they had comparable materials yet made some preferable changes. Titanium, s35vn and the fit and finish was exceptional and they were on roller bearings rather than the teflon washers. The flipping action was like a zt. It had a ceramic detent and the blade swung like a thorburn. They didnt use logos of hinderers.

Admittedly this is a rare occurence. Most times the clone wont touch the original. But that was never the point of a clone. The clones purpose is to get as close as possible while still hitting a certain price point. So say a clone of a $4000 custom may cost $150-200. It wont touch that custom. But they will sometimes compare nicely to a production knife in the same price range. Maybe even a bit nicer considering it will be a more faithful design. I will admit this though, there is no pride of ownership with clones. They can fill a utilitarian purpose but they have zero prestige. Take for instance my reate made steelcraft bodega. I have pride of ownership with that. Its authorized by begg has a good warranty and i know i can carry it with pride and not have to offer a lengthy explanation for it to other enthusiasts. And its nearly identical to a bodega 2.0 and in some ways is nicer than the original. Great value to that knife with no compromises for me. Clones can be great user knives and get very close to the design of what they replicate. But you will never pull a clone out of your pocket and get the feeling you get from a legit authorized version. And that is why i gave them up in most cases. Its not just about the design anymore. I want to feel good about a purchase and when i get something I like i want to share it. But i cant share what i know no one wants to see. I dont personally feel "wrong" with a clone. Its more like there is no feelings at all. Its a sterile non existent feeling. Counterfeits make me feel bad.

 

[PURPLEDC]

PURPLEDC I used the pronoun "mind" and used my words correctly in context. It had nothing to do with sexual assault victims.

I'm out of here, on to other things.

I disagree. But we dont have to agree.

 

[Danke42]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But so am I even if i may not be able to share all. And that is where you seem to not give any credit. I may have a difference of opinion when concerning clones. But i dont post videos, pictures or push any particular products nor do i ever cross the line as far as what can be posted. But as for pounding someone with my opinions flat until they are shown the door? Ive been here ten years (longer if you consider my lost profile) and ive prevented infinitely more people from being ripped off from clones than i have ever promoted. How is that? because of my experience with those clones. Maybe spend a little more than two years hear before you start trying to call the shots on who is going to be shown the door. While i have contributed my fair share to disruption here, ive also helped people whenever i can and that has been fairly often.

That post wasn't aimed at you but if it's affecting you then time for another long look in the mirror.

Length of time on site or membership status has nothing to do with living by an ethos of honesty.

It's manifest here that fakes aren't OK and I know that no matter how long I'm here ten minutes or ten years I won't change my view that they're anything but bad news.

 

[PURPLEDC]

That post wasn't aimed at you but if it's affecting you then time for another long look in the mirror.

Length of time on site or membership status has nothing to do with living by an ethos of honesty.

It's manifest here that fakes aren't OK and I know that no matter how long I'm here ten minutes or ten years I won't change my view that they're anything but bad news.

It didnt affect me, your post was simply vague enough to include me. As for looking in the mirror im not conflicted in any way on my views. And the rules of clones and counterfeits is clear. But agreeing with that philosophy is not required. The topic isnt 100% off limits. And i do my best to stay within the scope of the existing rules. And you are correct, time hear has nothing to do with peoples position on ethics and morals. But none of us, the membership, really dictate who stays and who goes. But if we did im just saying its a long line. Not even the mods really make that call. Most people are booted because of their own actions. And to me it would seem like a vendetta to vow to try and have anyone get the boot for not agreeing with you on one subject of many. But with that im bowing out of this thread. My position is clear. And i have participated in it too much as is.

 

[Balls Deep]

I want to add the the idea of copying or cloning is pretty gray and we're going to disagree on semantics. For instance with Ganzo knives, some elements are clearly taken from the originals but they are quite a bit different from the originals in many ways.

Also when we talk about clones there's a big caveat. They're apparently ok if enough time has past as per ops original post. Esee is an awesome company, they just came out with a kephart. Are they cloners now? It's not black and white, it's a big spectrum where we will all have our own opinion.

I feel like if we took the definition of what some would consider to be a clone, there would be very little innovation in the knife world.

What is a cold steel recon 1if not suped up version of a buck 110? Both lock backs, both clip point blades, both hollow grinds.

 

[Hackenslash]

No its nothing like that. And in fact its pretty insulting to those who have been raped..... for real. Now I havent been personally raped. But thats also why I try not to make comparisons to to things in which i couldnt even begin to feel how they feel. Ive had my own ip stolen by most of your standards. And in no way would i ever compare it to being sexually violated through my skull.

Wow, Purple I usually read your rebuttals with a great deal of respect but this was a huge straw man argument. It derailed the discussion because you took it there. What's next? People who oppose clones hate yellow people? Are we using PC now to defend clones? Bro, c'mon you can do better than this. I really hoped that HST would contribute more to this discussion but I think they've been run off. I'm not trying to belittle your contribution to this thread, only calling you out for a response that was well below you.

A couple of times in this thread I've raised the point that clones wouldn't exist if it weren't for a massive sense of entitlement entrenched in Western Society. None of the "pro-clone" arguments have chosen to address that TRUTH. It's all been attributed to the high cost of original knives, the Protectionism of the evil knife manufacturing industry and Capitalistic control of supply. Sad, I really wanted to hear the rationalization to excuse away the truth. I guess it must not exist.

<cue Bigfoot>