Stitchawl, we have butted heads in the past, but it has always been at an intelligent level of discussion and I am the wiser for our discussions. I VERY much appreciate your comments here on this thread! Thank you!
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Ken
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Once you go CBN...
- Thread starter DeadboxHero
- Start date
Stitchawl, we have butted heads in the past, but it has always been at an intelligent level of discussion and I am the wiser for our discussions. I VERY much appreciate your comments here on this thread! Thank you!
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Ken
'Butting heads?" That's putting it mildly. We fought tooth and nail on several issues.
Let me be very clear, just for everyone's sake... I have NEVER disputed the quality of your products. They are beyond reproach.
The research that you've put in, the dedication to the science behind your products, and the customer care that you provide, coupled with the highest quality products are what have made your business as successful as it it.
If I like something or if I don't, I won't hesitate to give my thoughts on the matter. That's what these forums are for. I just call 'em as I see 'em.
Stitchawl
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2014
- Messages
- 816
Jason at DLT is a known copycat. First, he copied Survive! Knives designs to tap into that market and now he tries selling CBN and claims it's on par with Ken's stuff? Man....you are a PATHETIC bully!!! I wish bad luck to your business.
DeadboxHero
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2014
- Messages
- 5,388
Hahaha yikes. Just wanted to share my new stroping compounds.
This is intense.
This is intense.
Ken,
Great data Sir. I'm a machinist so the numbers and graphs are my kind of language. I mean precise and accurate is what makes everything work. I appreciate you standing up and telling the truth. How would we really know unless we could see the two sides. Actually I wasn't aware of the issues but if it wasn't for it I wouldn't know the extent of your expertise and the utter quality of your product. Someone pretty wise said the truth shall set you free. So thanks.
I'm getting ready to get KME's new sharpening system with 4 diamond stones and they are including a kangaroo strop. I was considering get your 4 micron CBN they sell. So after all the new information, I'm getting it for sure.
Great data Sir. I'm a machinist so the numbers and graphs are my kind of language. I mean precise and accurate is what makes everything work. I appreciate you standing up and telling the truth. How would we really know unless we could see the two sides. Actually I wasn't aware of the issues but if it wasn't for it I wouldn't know the extent of your expertise and the utter quality of your product. Someone pretty wise said the truth shall set you free. So thanks.
I'm getting ready to get KME's new sharpening system with 4 diamond stones and they are including a kangaroo strop. I was considering get your 4 micron CBN they sell. So after all the new information, I'm getting it for sure.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2015
- Messages
- 446
There are a couple of questions that come to mind:
Is there any evidence that poly-diamond, mono-diamond or CBN produce any different result in terms of hand-stropping? (Yes, I am aware of the differences in high speed, high pressure grinding applications).
Is there any evidence that particle size distribution has an impact on resulting edge in applications where hand-stropping is applied? I am aware that there is an expectation that it matters, but I am specifically interested in actual experimental observations.
Anecdotally, I have worked with mono-diamond, poly-diamond, and Ken's CBN in the 0.25 micron size and have not observed any difference. To be clear, I have not systematically compared them, and do not know, off hand, how I would design such an experiment. I would be open to suggestions for an experiment that would be expected to show a difference.
Anecdotally, most of the abrasive sprays/pastes/bars I have analyzed have had larger particles than suggested by the manufacturer. I am not comfortable with drawing conclusions about any particular supplier/manufacturer, since I have typically only looked at one or two samples from a single batch.
For anyone interested, there are images of a few different abrasive (including CBN, mono-diamond and poly-diamond) here: https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/abrasive-particles-under-the-sem/
Is there any evidence that poly-diamond, mono-diamond or CBN produce any different result in terms of hand-stropping? (Yes, I am aware of the differences in high speed, high pressure grinding applications).
Is there any evidence that particle size distribution has an impact on resulting edge in applications where hand-stropping is applied? I am aware that there is an expectation that it matters, but I am specifically interested in actual experimental observations.
Anecdotally, I have worked with mono-diamond, poly-diamond, and Ken's CBN in the 0.25 micron size and have not observed any difference. To be clear, I have not systematically compared them, and do not know, off hand, how I would design such an experiment. I would be open to suggestions for an experiment that would be expected to show a difference.
Anecdotally, most of the abrasive sprays/pastes/bars I have analyzed have had larger particles than suggested by the manufacturer. I am not comfortable with drawing conclusions about any particular supplier/manufacturer, since I have typically only looked at one or two samples from a single batch.
For anyone interested, there are images of a few different abrasive (including CBN, mono-diamond and poly-diamond) here: https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/abrasive-particles-under-the-sem/
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,277
Ken, why would you allow you name on those products? "engineered by Ken Schwartz"
Thanks for the excellent data, I await the rebuttal for the reason of the sub-standard products from the others. A good reason, other than "we don't make it so we don't know what's in it", would be wonderful. Buying, marking up, reselling without testing is shameful but all to common these days.
Thanks for the excellent data, I await the rebuttal for the reason of the sub-standard products from the others. A good reason, other than "we don't make it so we don't know what's in it", would be wonderful. Buying, marking up, reselling without testing is shameful but all to common these days.
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 6,642
In my experience, using diamond and presumably cbn makes a huge difference when working high vanadium steels. Others swear by it for everything, but I haven't noticed any real difference when working on low carbide stainless and carbon steels. In my hands I get a better result with AlumOx or SiC.
Again, in my experience having a tight distribution is essential for cosmetic and very fine finish work. From a functional standpoint on relatively bright finishes for EDU, having some larger particles suspended with a bunch of finer ones is a bonus - can allow one to skip a strop progression and just use one operation. The end result does not default to the largest grit value but falls somewhere between, generally based on percentage by volume.
All depends on what the end user is doing. If they're doing professional high-end work, the tightest distribution will pay off large and is worth the extra $ - for most folks I cannot imagine they will notice and might even prefer the results from using a range of grit.
Ken, why would you allow you name on those products? "engineered by Ken Schwartz"
I allow my name on the products that I supply wholesale to customers who wish to relabel the products ONLY if my name appears on the bottle. So I allow my name on these products because they ARE my products.
My products are not kitchen sink productions. They are bottled for me in a multimillion dollar lab under strict conditions, with individual batch numbers, etc etc. The products are formulated using my custom formulations which have designated numbers as well. They are NOT stock formulas, but based on many test samples until I have something I feel is good enough to put my name on it. When I put my name on a product I stand behind it with the knowledge TO stand behind it. This support comes from YEARS of study. To me this adds value to what you get from me.
Unfortunately this is not the first instance of someone cutting me out to sell at lower prices, nor will it be the last. I will always find people trying to undercut my prices, but not offer a better product. I refuse to make a more dilute lower quality product to compete on price. If you want that, just add water to my product and you will have more ounces for the same price (kidding - don't do that). I will suffer for this and let people who want something like this get it elsewhere. I don't sharpen knives for $2 a blade for the same reasons - let someone else do that.
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Ken
I allow my name on the products that I supply wholesale to customers who wish to relabel the products ONLY if my name appears on the bottle. So I allow my name on these products because they ARE my products.
My products are not kitchen sink productions. They are bottled for me in a multimillion dollar lab under strict conditions, with individual batch numbers, etc etc. The products are formulated using my custom formulations which have designated numbers as well. They are NOT stock formulas, but based on many test samples until I have something I feel is good enough to put my name on it. When I put my name on a product I stand behind it with the knowledge TO stand behind it. This support comes from YEARS of study. To me this adds value to what you get from me.
Unfortunately this is not the first instance of someone cutting me out to sell at lower prices, nor will it be the last. I will always find people trying to undercut my prices, but not offer a better product. I refuse to make a more dilute lower quality product to compete on price. If you want that, just add water to my product and you will have more ounces for the same price (kidding - don't do that). I will suffer for this and let people who want something like this get it elsewhere. I don't sharpen knives for $2 a blade for the same reasons - let someone else do that.
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Ken
(sorry, had to split the post for it to upload for some reason)
Is there evidence that the type of compound or the particle consistency matters? Yes. Including on bench strops, depending on the application. So for instance it is widely accepted that a .25 micron CBN edge produces a smoother shave than mono diamond with poly inbetween. (For knives this becomes an issue of preference. Some prefer a bit more 'tooth' so poly or mono makes them 'happier', poly more than mono). This is the consensus of MANY straight razor users. There is also a preference for natural vs synthetic stone edges for straight razor honers by many users. A more comfortable edge is a very hard parameter to measure, with individual variances for beard types, etc. Poly contains MANY edges vs mono, so you get faster cut rates with more uniformity.
Particle inconsistency produces random scratches in a finish. Aside from the obvious aesthetic issues, a coarser than 1k particle floating around in a close to 1 micron product will produce random coarse scratches. These coarse scratches which intersect the edge produce the most likely point where edge fractures or chips occur.
(cont'd - problems uploading text)
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Ken
Is there evidence that the type of compound or the particle consistency matters? Yes. Including on bench strops, depending on the application. So for instance it is widely accepted that a .25 micron CBN edge produces a smoother shave than mono diamond with poly inbetween. (For knives this becomes an issue of preference. Some prefer a bit more 'tooth' so poly or mono makes them 'happier', poly more than mono). This is the consensus of MANY straight razor users. There is also a preference for natural vs synthetic stone edges for straight razor honers by many users. A more comfortable edge is a very hard parameter to measure, with individual variances for beard types, etc. Poly contains MANY edges vs mono, so you get faster cut rates with more uniformity.
Particle inconsistency produces random scratches in a finish. Aside from the obvious aesthetic issues, a coarser than 1k particle floating around in a close to 1 micron product will produce random coarse scratches. These coarse scratches which intersect the edge produce the most likely point where edge fractures or chips occur.
(cont'd - problems uploading text)
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Ken
Because there is no single abrasive that works best for all user's needs, I offer technical support to help users select from the over 100 abrasive formulations I carry. I don't suggest trying a bit of my compounds on the corner of a stone to see if it will damage the stone ROTFLMAO. Go tell that to someone with a $4k stone ...
Not knowing what's in a product is all too common. You see this especially with compound bars, which are mystery bars in most instances. The manufacturers OFTEN have no idea WHAT is in their bars, let alone particle sizes etc. So for instance, I don't carry Chromium oxide because my tests have not shown anything I would put my name on. I also don't carry certain stones because I don't personally like them. Could I make higher margins on some? Yes. But my name is not for sale. Maybe this is old school but I sleep well at night with what I sell.
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Ken
Not knowing what's in a product is all too common. You see this especially with compound bars, which are mystery bars in most instances. The manufacturers OFTEN have no idea WHAT is in their bars, let alone particle sizes etc. So for instance, I don't carry Chromium oxide because my tests have not shown anything I would put my name on. I also don't carry certain stones because I don't personally like them. Could I make higher margins on some? Yes. But my name is not for sale. Maybe this is old school but I sleep well at night with what I sell.
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Ken
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2015
- Messages
- 547
Testing for our product was done in the real world. Does this product work to sharpen knives on a leather strop? Absolutely. All of the people who were given test samples raved to us about how well it worked. We sell thousands of Bark River knives, bar compounds, and strops. This is a product for that market so they can get their knives sharpened to the next level, just as the thread starter suggested.
I think it is also important to understand that we only made our own because Ken couldn't deliver. It was either stop selling or make our own. This point he will contest but it's the God's honest truth. It is true we were able to get the per bottle cost down, but we also brought the retail price down which netted us about the same profit per bottle anyways.
We use a well established manufacturer who has been producing compounds for sharpening for a long time. I didn't question his ability to make the product when we saw that it works.
I never doubted Ken had a good product and the testing that he has done with waterstones and for razor sharpening is superb, but that is not our market and we don't plan to make it our market.
As for being a copy cat product, Ken didn't invent this stuff.
To knife chop please get your facts straight. The Ambush line is closer to a spear point Bravo 1, which was out long before any survive knife.
We'll keep plugging along and sell our products. If someone wants a sample to do their own real world testing I'd be happy to give you some free of charge. To everyone else, please keep buying from Ken.
ncrockclimb
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 2,378
Thanks. I'll be sure to do that.
"I think it is also important to understand that we only made our own because Ken couldn't deliver. It was either stop selling or make our own. This point he will contest but it's the God's honest truth."
The amount ordered was actually quite small compared to some of my other customers. So believe who you wish on this point. To me any excuse is a good excuse for doing what you want for some. In the end this becomes a moot point as I no longer supply him anyhow. Here we will simply agree to disagree.
So this comes to reputation. I've also been accused of lying about my product in comparison, saying BS on 'the net' etc. I am an honest straightforward person who may be a bit more of an academic than just a businessman, so I am more concerned about the quality of my offerings than my profit.
By laying out DATA and FACTS, I feel I have proven that I am not BSing, just being a bit too blunt at times. That the two labels for two distinct products still look the same is very unfortunate. That I have not 'invented' CBN is certainly true. I've just spent years perfecting the best product available and introduced DLT to it as a sharpening product, creating a competitor of sorts. I selected a couple of my products specifically for Bark River's knives, so using this knowledge to create a competitive product is an odd compliment of sorts. Sending my product out for analysis for the express purpose of attempting to copy it speaks to the uniqueness of my product.
(cont'd) seems it only accepts short posts here?
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Ken
The amount ordered was actually quite small compared to some of my other customers. So believe who you wish on this point. To me any excuse is a good excuse for doing what you want for some. In the end this becomes a moot point as I no longer supply him anyhow. Here we will simply agree to disagree.
So this comes to reputation. I've also been accused of lying about my product in comparison, saying BS on 'the net' etc. I am an honest straightforward person who may be a bit more of an academic than just a businessman, so I am more concerned about the quality of my offerings than my profit.
By laying out DATA and FACTS, I feel I have proven that I am not BSing, just being a bit too blunt at times. That the two labels for two distinct products still look the same is very unfortunate. That I have not 'invented' CBN is certainly true. I've just spent years perfecting the best product available and introduced DLT to it as a sharpening product, creating a competitor of sorts. I selected a couple of my products specifically for Bark River's knives, so using this knowledge to create a competitive product is an odd compliment of sorts. Sending my product out for analysis for the express purpose of attempting to copy it speaks to the uniqueness of my product.
(cont'd) seems it only accepts short posts here?
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Ken
At least the DLT product is using CBN. I have had competitor's products who didn't even use the abrasive they said was in their product, had clumps in a quarter micron product that were 150 microns in size, were of even lower concentration, etc. There are worse products out there.
I feel I walk away from this discussion with my product's reputation and my reputation intact. Again I hold reputation over profit, which is my failing in some sense - which I have no interest in changing. Beyond that the market can decide what they wish to purchase.
From a purely technical point of view, given the data, it is probably best to compare the DLT half micron CBN product to my 1 micron product as these are more similar grits (median particle size, excluding the 20 micron particles) than comparing both half micron products.
Perhaps in the end, DLT will introduce CBN to yet a wider audience, further increasing it's acceptance, so hopefully some good will come of this. I doubt the world will run out of dull knives.
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Ken
I feel I walk away from this discussion with my product's reputation and my reputation intact. Again I hold reputation over profit, which is my failing in some sense - which I have no interest in changing. Beyond that the market can decide what they wish to purchase.
From a purely technical point of view, given the data, it is probably best to compare the DLT half micron CBN product to my 1 micron product as these are more similar grits (median particle size, excluding the 20 micron particles) than comparing both half micron products.
Perhaps in the end, DLT will introduce CBN to yet a wider audience, further increasing it's acceptance, so hopefully some good will come of this. I doubt the world will run out of dull knives.
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Ken
So for those who are interested I'd like to compare two more parameters, concentration and viscosity. I'll summarize this briefly as it does further differentiate the products.
My product contains 1.31 times more abrasive. Or the other product contains 77% as much CBN. So if you compare pricing by CBN content present you would charge .77 times my product price of $49, ie $37.73. Put another way 2 oz of my product would require 2.62 ounces of the other product for the same amount of CBN. Just saying ...
Another parameter is viscosity. My product is 2.43 times thicker. Not a measure of the abrasive present but a measure of the emulsion's characteristics. If an emulsion is thicker, the particles stay in suspension better, giving a more uniform particle dispersion characteristic.
I can go into more detail regarding testing procedures, units of measure etc if I haven't given too much detail already and put everyone asleep
Again no BS, just hard DATA and FACTS.
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Ken
My product contains 1.31 times more abrasive. Or the other product contains 77% as much CBN. So if you compare pricing by CBN content present you would charge .77 times my product price of $49, ie $37.73. Put another way 2 oz of my product would require 2.62 ounces of the other product for the same amount of CBN. Just saying ...
Another parameter is viscosity. My product is 2.43 times thicker. Not a measure of the abrasive present but a measure of the emulsion's characteristics. If an emulsion is thicker, the particles stay in suspension better, giving a more uniform particle dispersion characteristic.
I can go into more detail regarding testing procedures, units of measure etc if I haven't given too much detail already and put everyone asleep
Again no BS, just hard DATA and FACTS.---
Ken
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2011
- Messages
- 795
The problem is that "in the real world" your product, which claims to be a 0.5u product is closer to a 1u product, and will leave scratches as large as 20u in users knives. This is a serious problem, if I want a 20u scratches I would just apply a good 800 grit finish.
Thank you, I'd like to give your product a try. How can I get a few drops of your .5 micron CBN to evaluate? You can reach me at the following address: stitchawl99@yahoo.com
Thanks
Stitchawl
BluntCut MetalWorks
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2012
- Messages
- 3,462
From the data provided. I agree with your assertion.
As for implying DLT CBN products contains a large percent of CBN (or unknown) particles with diameter greater than 3um. It's more of a marketing than scientific speak. If unknown particle are just combination of soft binder/emulsion and material softer than steel, virtually no impact on the result. Clumped/conglomerated CBN into a larger chunk is not the same as solid CBN particle because clumped chunk most likely to have very low friability coefficient. Perhaps, DLT or you or somebody need to provide some proof. As simple as strop a mirror surface with DLT 0.5um CBN, will there be scratch pattern caused by 3-20um particle.
Neutral learner am, I am neutral
As for implying DLT CBN products contains a large percent of CBN (or unknown) particles with diameter greater than 3um. It's more of a marketing than scientific speak. If unknown particle are just combination of soft binder/emulsion and material softer than steel, virtually no impact on the result. Clumped/conglomerated CBN into a larger chunk is not the same as solid CBN particle because clumped chunk most likely to have very low friability coefficient. Perhaps, DLT or you or somebody need to provide some proof. As simple as strop a mirror surface with DLT 0.5um CBN, will there be scratch pattern caused by 3-20um particle.
Neutral learner am, I am neutral
pjwoolw
Sharpening guy
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2012
- Messages
- 407
Bluntcut I imagine most really don't care as long as the knife is sharp. Folks like myself that are in the business of sharpening depend on a consistent product that covers allot of bases. Ken's product has never failed or disappointed me. When you get into the finer items such as straight razors and finer knives this is when the quality of the product shines. Customer and personal satisfaction is my goal. I depend on Ken to provide me with the finest products available. It just doesn't get any better.