One set of stones or two (VG-10 to Maxamet)

The origin of my vitrified stones are due that when I started making knives from Rex121 at 70rc 30% Carbide volume and CPM 15v at 68rc at 21% carbide volume there wasn't anything that felt like a traditional soaking Waterstone with speed and feel and resistance to loading.
I have been using diamond Waterstones for the past few years but wanted something that was more like my favorite japanese Waterstones.

I had done resin CBN stones in the past but I like the vitrified more because it has better feedback and faster cutting speed than the resin stones I had. Also, I didn't have to dress to remove glazing to cut properly, the Vitrified stones will still have the feedback with loading and don't start burnishing.

Everthing has tradeoffs, the cost is higher and there has been significantly more difficulty in getting stones made, not to mention filling 5mm thick 8x3" with CBN is not cheap.

My stones exist so I can do what I like with the steels I like.

I'm bringing them to bladeshow west with for people to try at my sharpening station. Also a great way to learn freehand if I am not busy with customers asking about my knives.



I like David's Matrix stones. They have a nice feel and finish.

The Venev is very affordable.

Whatever works
 
Thanks for the reply, BBB. Just to be clear, I didn't mean to imply that your stones are going to be overprice. Just out of my price range. I'd sure they're great and worth the cost. I will absolutely stop by your booth and try them out.
 
Jason B. said:
For high alloy steels.
Ultrasharp 300/1200, Spyderco UF ceramic strop with 1 micron diamond compound.

Low alloy steels.
Naniwa Pro 400
Naniwa Aotoshi 2000
Atoma 140 for lapping.
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Been using the 400 Pro and Aotoshi. The 400 is nice and works as expected. The Aotoshi is a different. I'm doing edge trailing passes only and not creating any mud. It puts on a nice edge more quickly than I expected. I was initially over sharpening with it. The edges don't "feel" as sharp as I'm used to from other stones using the three-finger test. I'm easily slicing paper towels off the Aotoshi.
 
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DMT plates will cut any steel mentioned. They are proven and reasonably priced.
People who say they dont last either misuse them or are pushing another product. Some may not like their feedback but they work.
I have two of their 6" plates that are older than some of the guys in this post.


Russ
 
I have diamond plates. In fact I just touched up my S35VN chef's knife last night on plates. No question they work. I just don't like them.

I'm mostly sharpening high carbide steels on my EdgePro with diamond matrix stones. The speed at which they cut, the way they cut, the maintenance, the lack of deep scratches and consequently the finish are dramatically better than I get from surface mounted diamonds.

I'm holding out for bench-sized versions of these or something similar. I'll check out BBB's stones at the show next week.
 
David Richardson said:
I have diamond plates. In fact I just touched up my S35VN chef's knife last night on plates. No question they work. I just don't like them.

I'm mostly sharpening high carbide steels on my EdgePro with diamond matrix stones. The speed at which they cut, the way they cut, the maintenance, the lack of deep scratches and consequently the finish are dramatically better than I get from surface mounted diamonds.

I'm holding out for bench-sized versions of these or something similar. I'll check out BBB's stones at the show next week.
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David, in case you are still looking, I recommend the bench sized resin bound DMD (not to be confused with DMT) diamond stones: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32716558253.html

They come at an amazing value for the price, and have been favourably compared to the Naniwa Diamond stones (DMD have higher diamond density) in a comparison review at the German kitchen knife forum: http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/1511/dmd-diamond-stones (must be a member to view the thread).

They have been purchased by at least a dozen users at the German forum and they are all of the same excellent quality.

They come in 1K, 3K, 6K and 12K grits, are nice to sharpen on (much nicer than Atoma or DMT, but less nice (smooth) than traditional ceramic bench stones like Naniwa Pro or Shapton Glass) and will work great on any steel.

I have sharpened my two Spyderco Maxamets with the DMD and they eat them like any other steel.

If you want to go with two sets, I would recommend Shapton (Pro or Glass) and the DMD. The Shapton Pro are much cheaper when you get the "Shapton Kuromaku" at amazon instead.

For lower grits, I recommend Atoma (or DMT).
 
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Haven't seen those before - those look interesting. For now I'm waiting to see when DieMaker releases his stones. His EP stones are great and he's local to me. Always prefer to support local makers when I can. If those don't work out I'll consider the ones you mentioned above. Thanks much.

For me bonded diamonds or CBN is the future of stones.
 
mycough said:
DMT plates will cut any steel mentioned. They are proven and reasonably priced.
People who say they dont last either misuse them or are pushing another product. Some may not like their feedback but they work.
I have two of their 6" plates that are older than some of the guys in this post.


Russ
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Ya can keep em, I'm happy there are folks that keep pushing the envelope with more advanced higher performance stones.

There will never be a shortage of cheaper stones for folks that need the "git er done"
To that effect,super glue and diamond dust on a plate of steel could be argued to save money on expensive DMTs and people are just trying to push DMT blah blah blah.


No one here claims that you need exotic stones to increase your sharpening skill

It's just nice to enhance the experience, speed it up and enjoy it.

Too each their own.

Cheers
 
DeadboxHero said:
Ya can keep em, I'm happy there are folks that keep pushing the envelope with more advanced higher performance stones.

There will never be a shortage of cheaper stones for folks that need the "git er done"
To that effect,super glue and diamond dust on a plate of steel could be argued to save money on expensive DMTs and people are just trying to push DMT blah blah blah.


No one here claims that you need exotic stones to increase your sharpening skill

It's just nice to enhance the experience, speed it up and enjoy it.

Too each their own.

Cheers
Click to expand...

When I start hearing "blah blah blah" is when longevity of dmt plates is compared to new "exotic" stones that have been out a year or two. There are plenty of us who have been using dmt and atoma for a long time and often and they keep on going. It will be years before they can be compared that way.
Your post makes no real impact on this thread.
Feel free to glue dust on a plate, and as far as getter done, that has not thing one to do with dmt or the guys that use them.
I stand by my statements about quality diamond plates, and there is no proof at this time that the envelope pushing are truly higher performing, or that they are worth the money.
 
bucketstove said:
Hi, these videos do not compare DMT stones to "Vitrified CBN Waterstone" , so how are they showing higher performance?
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The first video, the viewer can see that we are able to sharpen a hard steel (68rc) quickly without a deep scratch or fear of Abrasive tear out and we can refine the edge very quickly to a high level of sharpeness rather than just making a deep scratch aggressive toothy edge like the plates.


The ceramic knife, we are able to repair a chip without a deep scratch that cause fractures with grinding.


The 15v I start with no edge, a flat plateau from the grinder, I used this stone set every edge on my custom knives. If I used a plate I'd wear out the diamonds on the surface quickly and need to buy more plates.

The next video shows how I get a nice blend of polished sharpeness and aggression with a bonded stones rather than just aggression from the deep scratch on the coated diamond plate.

The last video also shows how nicely I'm able to get a good push cut with a high carbide steel 23% volume Vanadium carbide at 68 rc
 
That is impressive. I have a few k390 and 10v at 64 and 63, and a crazy m4 at 67 but I beg out, I have never dealt with anything like that. If you say vitrified and resin last longer with steels like that I believe you.
I have all the dmt plates, all the atoma, and a few ultra sharp and smith to getter' done, and one naniwa 600 diamond stone.
My experience with the naniwa is for my application, I would rather have 3 8" dmt fines, although at age 58, I hope I live long enough to wear three out, and as a chef, I sharpen more knives than many on here.
If I run in to something I cant handle, I will look you up.
 
mycough said:
That is impressive. I have a few k390 and 10v at 64 and 63, and a crazy m4 at 67 but I beg out, I have never dealt with anything like that. If you say vitrified and resin last longer with steels like that I believe you.
I have all the dmt plates, all the atoma, and a few ultra sharp and smith to getter' done, and one naniwa 600 diamond stone.
My experience with the naniwa is for my application, I would rather have 3 8" dmt fines, although at age 58, I hope I live long enough to wear three out, and as a chef, I sharpen more knives than many on here.
If I run in to something I cant handle, I will look you up.
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There are three different bonding technologies right now.

This is the cheat sheet.

I only work with the Vitrified bonded stones but everything has trades offs and advantages.



Metallic bonded-
CBN/Diamond in a brass metal bond
Deeper scratches but smoother cut than a coated plate, renewable surface all the way through. Dressed with ferric chloride to eat brass bonding to reveal fresh grit. Will need SiC powder to flatten over long period of heavy use in combination with ferric chloride chemical dressing. Can be used dry

Resin bonded -
Highest polish performance, resin helps burnish the bevels to a high luster at a given grit compared to non resin bonds. Can be prone to loading and a slower cut, very very long lasting. Splash and go will need to be dressed often since the resin glazes and clogs but the advantage is a rock hard stone that wears slow.

Vitrified bonded
Fastest cut, finish is in-between resin and Metallic bonded stones, best feed back, needs a soak in water before use. Mimics a Japanese style water stone in feel. Will show loading but doesn't affect the cutting speed or feedback like resin. Will need to be maintained with a combination of SiC or AlOx Flattening stone and SiC powder.


There are various bond Hardnesses and abrasive types with each of these types of bonds so not always so cut and dry.


If I had to pick a favorite I'd say Vitrified but they are all very enjoyable and have there merits for bringing out different effects for different things.

None replace sharpening skill or ability but they cut faster and more aggressive than a traditional stones and have a cleaner smoother finish and fast cutting than the coated stones except the resin which is slower.
 
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You forgot plated bond which is the fastest, perhaps too fast for using by hand. As for resin if it's not cutting fast enough drop down a grit, kind of the rule of thumb with sharpening. Keep in mind the numbers on the stone are there only to tell them apart, grit size is only a small part of what determines how a stone will work. If it is glazing and cloging then you are either not keeping it wet or your steel is too soft, as in way too soft.

How do you dress your vitrified CBN stones for flatness?
 
Diemaker said:
You forgot plated bond which is the fastest, perhaps too fast for using by hand. As for resin if it's not cutting fast enough drop down a grit, kind of the rule of thumb with sharpening. Keep in mind the numbers on the stone are there only to tell them apart, grit size is only a small part of what determines how a stone will work. If it is glazing and cloging then you are either not keeping it wet or your steel is too soft, as in way too soft.

How do you dress your vitrified CBN stones for flatness?
Click to expand...
Suehikin Stone Flattener to maintain quickly, SiC powder added as needed.
 
mycough said:
I stand by my statements about quality diamond plates, and there is no proof at this time that the envelope pushing are truly higher performing, or that they are worth the money.
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Why are you skeptical of something you haven't tried? I've used various diamond plates and DieMakers bonded diamond stones (EdgePro only for bonded). Night and day difference in terms of scratches, finish, and time to a sharp edge. I'm eager to get my hands on a vitrified or bonded bench stone. Based on my EdgePro experience they will be worth the cost.

Pros for diamond plates are that they don't require maintenance, are cheaper, and can cut very quickly. Cons are that the course stones can leave your edge in terrible shape that takes a long time to clean up. Way to much material removal with the coarse diamond plates in my experience. The finer plates work but tend to leave a somewhat ragged edge (relatively). Summary: they're inexpensive and cut well. They don't leave an edge I care for.

Pros for matrix stones are that they cut like crazy and don't tear up the edge like surface mount diamonds. The progression between stones is amazingly fast. Even the coarse edges are smooth and refined relative to surface mount diamonds. Night and day difference for me. And the sharpness I can off matrix stones is better and I get there faster. I've done dozens (100s, actually) of edge retention tests. (Yes, I need to get these published). There's no question that the matrix stones give a better edge in terms of how it cuts and edge retention. This is just for me - could be different for others. Cons are the cost and that they require some maintenance. The biggest difference is with higher carbide steels like K390, Maxamet, 4V, A11, and others. (Interestingly, I didn't see a big difference with these on ZDP.)

Disappointed that I missed BBBs stones at Blade West. I ended up getting sick and couldn't get back to the show. Based on the reception they got I'm sure they're excellent.
 
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