I don't mean any disrespect but an honest inquiry is in order. Why is it that so many knife designs look like rip offs of another design? And why is that only certain rip offs get knocked while others seem to get a pass, for instance so many knives especially frame lock flippers all start looking alike but no one is claiming intellectual property when they all look like they are mocking each other. I know quality and everything comes into play but it sure seems only certain copies are frowned upon while others are praised. Like I said I don't want to upset anyone just don't understand while there is so much ridicule for some and none for others
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Only so many ways
- Thread starter Tbmfish
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I think that there's a very fine line between knives that are clearly "inspired" by another design and examples where function dictates form. For example if you wanted to design a knife with a specific blade length, grind type, general blade shape, and locking mechanism you are often left with a knife that's not far off from another dozen designs. Take a look at the 4 inch, drop point fixed blade market, there's quite a bit of overlap in style.
That's exactly my point wambo a huge overlap.
Example is must obvious in frame lock flippers, hinder ZT and kershaw look pretty close to one another. The hinder seems to be copied by a lot of other people are did they copy from someone else? I mean just stroll through frame lock flippers on any website and sooner are later it's very subtle differences that distinguish them.
But than there is the CRK and the senrumo. I know my spelling stinks! I have a CRKT that is a closer model than the senrumo and looking at a boker that seems to follow the same design I mean the examples are to many to even list of knives that look a whole lot and I mean a whole lot alike. Benchmade makes a nice frame lock flippers I like it but man there are at least 15 designs that look just like it from other makers that no one ever says anything about.
Than there is the ganzo that makes people near bout wet there pants that gets all kinda slack as a copy but another company uses the axis lock and its fine. I don't have a ganzo or senrumo but it seems people pick and choose on these things.
Now let me say this, those people ripping off CRK knives and spyderco and putting their name and marks on them should be nailed to a stump where the sun don't shine and giving there lying cheating knife and left to decide[emoji83]
Example is must obvious in frame lock flippers, hinder ZT and kershaw look pretty close to one another. The hinder seems to be copied by a lot of other people are did they copy from someone else? I mean just stroll through frame lock flippers on any website and sooner are later it's very subtle differences that distinguish them.
But than there is the CRK and the senrumo. I know my spelling stinks! I have a CRKT that is a closer model than the senrumo and looking at a boker that seems to follow the same design I mean the examples are to many to even list of knives that look a whole lot and I mean a whole lot alike. Benchmade makes a nice frame lock flippers I like it but man there are at least 15 designs that look just like it from other makers that no one ever says anything about.
Than there is the ganzo that makes people near bout wet there pants that gets all kinda slack as a copy but another company uses the axis lock and its fine. I don't have a ganzo or senrumo but it seems people pick and choose on these things.
Now let me say this, those people ripping off CRK knives and spyderco and putting their name and marks on them should be nailed to a stump where the sun don't shine and giving there lying cheating knife and left to decide[emoji83]
DeadboxHero
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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There is an old saying,
"nothing new under the sun"
Sometimes certain shapes are just the most efficient for the function of the task they are designing for.
Should only one chef, one company be allowed to make something as ubiquitous as spaghetti?
no that's absurd
any one can copy a shape or make spaghetti.
Its the execution, the mastery of the metallurgy, cutting geometry, the fit and the finish, how it feels, how it opens, the fine details, craftsmanship, reputation.
its only when someone makes spaghetti and tries to cash in on someone else's recipe and reputation; that is frowned upon
and super cheesy
mmm cheesy hahaha
Its form and function,
with "function" you are more limited on "form" since there are less shapes that can be chosen
since it has to perform a task that can limit the shape, while techniques can change. human anatomy is constant
if the knife is form only with no function then the sky is the limit
just appearance, art
"nothing new under the sun"
Sometimes certain shapes are just the most efficient for the function of the task they are designing for.
Should only one chef, one company be allowed to make something as ubiquitous as spaghetti?
no that's absurd
any one can copy a shape or make spaghetti.
Its the execution, the mastery of the metallurgy, cutting geometry, the fit and the finish, how it feels, how it opens, the fine details, craftsmanship, reputation.
its only when someone makes spaghetti and tries to cash in on someone else's recipe and reputation; that is frowned upon
and super cheesy
mmm cheesy hahaha
Its form and function,
with "function" you are more limited on "form" since there are less shapes that can be chosen
since it has to perform a task that can limit the shape, while techniques can change. human anatomy is constant
if the knife is form only with no function then the sky is the limit
just appearance, art
Kershaw and ZT are the same company so no surprise if it looks like one is copying the other. They had a Rick Hinderer model in their lineup.
KingMC
The Pun-isher
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Rick Hinderer designed knives for ZT/Kershaw, so of course many of them would look similar to each other.
Using the AXIS lock is fine if you pay royalties to Benchmade, copying it and calling it the 'axis lock' (lowercase) is not fine.
Sometimes you need to know more about the knife world and the companies in it before you can fully understand the feelings some have towards certain companies.
Using the AXIS lock is fine if you pay royalties to Benchmade, copying it and calling it the 'axis lock' (lowercase) is not fine.
Sometimes you need to know more about the knife world and the companies in it before you can fully understand the feelings some have towards certain companies.
Cough At the risk of re-opening that can of worms, the patent on the locking mechanism expired. Whether or not BM has a trademark on "Axis Lock" is something I've never bothered to look up.
(Making sure I don't un-check the "show signature" box out of habit.)
(Making sure I don't un-check the "show signature" box out of habit.)
That s why all the hammers on this planet a same and have the same handle :thumbup: And I do not see why it would be different with knives
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Rick designs for KAI Kershaw/Zero Tolerance (you will see "Hinderer design" on those blades (which there are many of) and he gets paid to do it, put his name on it.
I think we're still waiting for a solid example?
I really don't think that going down this avenue is going to justify blatant clones though...
I'm not trying to justify clones. I for one agree that the quality is much better in the real deal so to speak. But I have a benchmade mini grip with a spyderco hole in the blade and nobody says benchmade is ripping of spyderco. I would not have bought the benchmade if it did not have the hole though. I don't understand how that's any different than the axis lock deal with ganzo. And the sanrumo deal is nothing like a Sebenza considering that whole line of thought form verses function. The steel in is different the size is different the scales are different, but so many people say it's a clone but other companies reputable companies make knives that are so close in design to the Sebenza it's crazy to fuss about one and not the other. Sure I know hinder designed for kershaw and ZT but what about all those other hinder looking flippers at the knife dealers website? Don't act like you don't notice it's somewhat obvious just do a search on some of the major online stores that sale hinders. Than there is strider and southern grind are they partners too? Because they sure do make some models that look a whole lot alike. I'm not trying to insult the companies by no means all the knives I have mentioned are nice knives good knives I believe that's not the issue it's the people that single out companies while excluding others that I'm trying to figure out. Take the case sod buster, there has to be a million copies of that design but nobody ever says it's a rip off in fact several custom makers it seems have copied the old sod buster down through the years but nobody is screaming infringement. I love my sodbuster but I got a slip joint like it from another company if you were to put yellow scales on it I literally think it would be the same knife. There are many many many knives like this from different makers
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That would be because Benchmade got permission from Spyderco to use the hole opening feature, like Kershaw gets permission from Emerson for the wave feature, Spyderco did the same with Emerson. Most of the big companies use some of the same designs and have agreements with the originators.
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There is a big difference between using another makers design, trademark, etc. with permission and in some cases paying royalty vs. just stealing it. The only thing you have pointed out is that ZT has knives that look similar to Hinderers and thats due to the fact Rick Hinderer designed several in ZT/Kershaw's lineup. Please provide another example of a knife that looks very similar to a Hinderer. FYI, you will have a major uphill battle in this thread.
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Some of Kizer's early models looked very much Hinderer "inspired" and there was some questioning about it.
A lot of custom and high end knife makers collaborate with production companies to bring their design (and name) to the masses.
Brian Tighe has collabs with CRKT and Spyderco, as well as his new "Brian Tighe and friends" company. Todd Begg has his "Steelcraft" series made by Reate.
If you look closer, a large percentage of production knives are collaborations. Of those, there are often variations of the same basic design, which could lead to someone with the same opinion as you.
Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
A lot of custom and high end knife makers collaborate with production companies to bring their design (and name) to the masses.
Brian Tighe has collabs with CRKT and Spyderco, as well as his new "Brian Tighe and friends" company. Todd Begg has his "Steelcraft" series made by Reate.
If you look closer, a large percentage of production knives are collaborations. Of those, there are often variations of the same basic design, which could lead to someone with the same opinion as you.
Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
A solid example might be the Buck 110 and the Schrade Bear Paw and the Puma General and the Uitica Traditional Hunter and the Bear & Son 205R and the Case Hammerhead. All essentially the same (clones, if you will) and this is not an exhaustive list.
Mention a Sanrenmu that looks similar to a Sebenza however, and the screaming begins.
I think this may be the idea behind the op (or I may be totally off-base).
As for the Axis Lock: regardless of the patent expiration, a US patent does not protect on a global level. If the Chinese copy and use it, they have broken no laws UNTIL they export to the US to sell the item. Then, it's a different ballgame.
Call the uncompensated use of the concept wrong and immoral, but illegal it ain't.
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It could be because some of us like standing on soapboxes or have some sort of personal agenda.
What I don't understand is the claim that some knives ruin the hobby for everyone and others don't.
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Well, outright fakes sure do.
As in when the jerks copy all the markings and everything.
It ruins the whole thing of buying and trading knives with each other...the person selling it might believe it is the real deal, and you end up spending a few hundred bucks on a counterfeit. :thumbdn:
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I can't argue about a true counterfeit. That is not what I am talking about. What puzzles me is when you have someone offering a knife that resembles one made by another company. Resembles. The knife is obviously not a counterfeit. No one claims it is something it isn't. Yet some here will insist these knives are a threat to us and the hobby we enjoy so much. Maybe even a threat to the knife industry.
I just don't get it. I am still waiting for a simple, logical explanation as to how these products ruin our hobby.