Ontario 1095 ?

D

Dr. Pepper

Joined
Sep 26, 2006
Messages
167
Over on the R.A.T. forum there seems to be several references to Ontario’s heat treat “problems.” What exactly is/was this problem, too hard or too soft?

I have an Ontario Rat 7 and 3 in 1095. I really like them both but do feel the steel is a little soft even for an advertised 57-58RC heat treat. I am specifically thinking about simply whittling/ chopping clean softer wood like maple and my edge rolling.

Anybody care to give advice on how to best sharpen to squeeze out more durability while still acting sharp? I have not learned to convex yet. I have been using the lansky at 17 degrees for the primary bevel (shoulder relief) and then going raising it up one hole (20) steeper for the cutting edge.

This is not really a new problem for me. For those who still are able to search you can see where I have been asking about the heat treat and edge retention of these knives. Unfortunately I never got those questions answered entirely.

I do not really want to ask this question on the new R.A.T forum because Jeff and Mike are not connected to the Ontario manufacturing process and I am not whining and looking for a new knife.

The goal of this post is to see if I can get some confirmation of my observations from other users and learn how to best deal with it. Or even for someone to tell me that I am expecting too much.

Also, is it correct that a flat grind will not cut hardly as well as a hollow grind because of the increased friction of the blade stock behind the cutting bevel? However, because of the extra steel supporting the edge it is theory is much stronger? I have noticed the Rat 3 just can’t keep up with a 110 in terms of easy cutting.
 
Inconsistency has been reported about Ontario's heat treat, so it has been a sort of crap shoot I hear. I have a great Marine Raider Bowie that is tough, and holds an edge very well. I do consider the RAT line to be a step up from mainline Ontarios, but if I was getting a RAT, it would be a new breed RAT, not an Ontario. And while a very fine polished edge won't slice as well as a more toothy edge, it will hold up better. 1095 responds very well to stropping. I use just 3 things on mine, the fine side of my Norton India, a soft Arkansas, and a loaded strop. A fine edge is also better for woodwork. Try a thorough sharpening down to a mirror polish, and see if that helps a bit.
 
I have an RTAK, RAT 5, and RAT 7. I have never had a problem with edge rolling in any medium shy of an inadvertent rock strike on the RTAK while chopping. You just might have problems with your knives that are legitimate heat treat complaints.

They both have rolling problems or is it just the RAT 3? The "RAT heat treat problem" was some knives coming out too soft. If the steel wasn't properly hardened to the specified RC, no amount of edge geometry trickery is going to long spare you from the actual problem. You should raise your issues with the RAT guys. It's not as if the issue will catch them unfairly off guard and they will strive to alleviate your concerns or rectify the situation.
 
I do not think feel the Rat-3 is hardly as soft as the Rat-7. It seems to roll less. This could be due to the difference in the force applied to what I am cutting with each respective knife.

Is there test that can be done to determine whether or not it is a heat treat problem, or is the general approach to just try a different knife?
 
Try sharpening down to the really good steal and see if that helps. Sometimes, the edge gets to heated by the sharping process and weakens the edge holding capability. I never had any trouble out of my Rat7 or my friends rat 3 once I sharpen it down to the edge that I wanted.
 
Talk to the guys at RAT. Seriously. If they think it's a genuine heat treat problem, they'll get you a new one. Personally, I've had mine for a while now and couldn't be happier with it. It's gone through everything from thin branches to 2 and 3" thick vine. When I hunt it's on my side. when I hike, it's on my side. Hell, I even call it "Visa"...I don't leave home without it.
 
Dr. Pepper (like the name BTW):

The edge on your RAT-3 should not be rolling. If I remember correctly Mike had an issue with a similar knife and I *think* (not sure) it was a heat treat issue couple with a grinding issue. Ontario is currently revamping the way they manufacture RAT knives, and the end result (once the process is complete) is going to be a much higher quality knife.

Even though this thread has nothing to do with RAT Cutlery, Mike and I are still handling customer service issues on Ontario RAT knives so never feel timid about posting such a question in the RAT Cutlery forum. In fact, this thread should probably be moved to there but I'll leave that to the other moderators.

Jeff
 
All customer service issues concerning RAT knives made at Ontario Knife still go through us. Specifically me. Our "no questions asked" replacement policy still remains in effect so never hesitate to contact me with a problem. mikeperrin@earthlink.net

Ontario stopped production of RAT knives back in September to completely overhaul several areas of production for our knives as well as it's other lines. We did have occasional problems with heat trat but the bigger issues usually arose from grinding. SO they bought better grinders to effect consistant flat grinding to specs. They are now working through all the RAT knives in 1095 steel so they will be the first to ship propbably in early January. All d2 knives will follow thta maybe a month or so later. ( Because of this time table I cannot provide warranty replacements until knives are in stock.) The result of all this should be better quality with consistancy. There will be no seconds ever sold again in the RAT line made by Ontario. Period. Neither Jeff or I nor Ontario want to have the reputation of two standards of quality being sold out of the plant.

All the 1095 knives are supposed to be heat treated to 57-58 RC. All the D2 knives should be 59-60 RC. The edge of the 1095 knives should not "roll" ever unless you are trying to cut steel. If it is doing this then you are due a new knife as Boats said above nothing will save the edge if it is truely a heat treat issue. Contact me at the above email and I'll deal with it.

As for the flat grind not cutting efficiently as hollow grinding I think you'll find folks going both ways on the thinking. Jeff and I believe that flat grinding cuts more efficiently and it is certainly stronger. I have done wood working for a living for over 30 years and sharpen tools both ways depending on what I do with it. Most of my carving tools for example are hollow ground for finer cutting and control but I never put a lot of stress on the edge. It would break if I did. Most bench and firmer chisels are flat ground with a secondary bevel because the edge is stronger and I do pound the chisels putting stress on the edge. But overall in the outdoors to have an efficient edge and strong edge in one tool then we think a flat grind all the way up the blade is the best way to go. As for efficientcy most of my best kitchen knives are full flat grinds and cut very well.

Let me know if I can help with RAT/Ontario or RAT Cutlery knives. Jeff and I don't claim to make the best knife in the world but we have customer service second to none in this industry. Mike
 
Thanks for the response Jeff and Mike. It is easy to see that you two are sincere about your commitment to outstanding customer service. I appreciate the information and am sure others that read this will as well.

As far as my rat-7 is concerned I realized just last night actually that it is such a wide blade that using the Lansky at 17 degrees actually puts the angle down lower than expected. Raising the stone back up to 20 degrees to finish with was like trying to put a micro bevel on a burr. I am guessing that I simply over- sharpened the edge for the rough type of work this knife is meant for. What else can be expected when you try to sharpen a camp knife like a kitchen slicer and then go use it in the woods? Dang was it sharp though.

I am hoping that a little more use and then sharpening at a more obtuse angle with a lot of finer polishing work should give a more durable edge.

If I still have rolling I will email you, but at the moment I am convinced that I just had too little steel at the edge for a 57RC knife and was trying to work with what was practically a burr.

Thanks
 
The RAT-7 should take the sharpening you are doing. Have you tried to strop the burr off? A lot of times to remove the burr I sharpen back towards the spine and do a slight secondary micro bevel for the edge.
 
Mike. Thanks for that info. I am a huge fan of Ontario knives. I have half a dozen of the large knives like the Marine fighter. Maybe Ontario is not the best knife in the world but its sure one of the better values on the market. We can't all afford to lay out 300-500 dollars for a custom made knife and Ontario knives fill the need for us in that category. Thanks for a great product.

BTW. My knives are fairly old and are 1095 there have never been any issues with the knives I own. I got more that my monies worth.
 
Is this heat treat problem just with the Ontario R.A.T. series or with the Ontario R.T.A.K. series as well? I have a 9" R.T.A.K. and was wondering.,,,thanks,,,VWB.
 
Dr. Pepper said:
Anybody care to give advice on how to best sharpen to squeeze out more durability while still acting sharp? I have not learned to convex yet. I have been using the lansky at 17 degrees for the primary bevel (shoulder relief) and then going raising it up one hole (20) steeper for the cutting edge.
Click to expand...

If you go into the Busse Combat Knives part or the forum there is an eecellent how to thread about putting a convex edge onto a blade. It might be worth a look.
The only RAT knife I have is a RAT 7 in D2 and it peforms much better now that I put a convex edge on it.
 
Looks like some good customer service in this thread. Makes me glad I ordered a RAT-3.
 
Makes me glad I own 6 RAT blades and looking for more but this time it will be RAT Cutlery line up RC version.....
 
We haven't had much problems with RTAK or RTAK II. By the way all the RAT knives at Ontario are sharpened by hand. EVen though they try for something close to 18 degrees on the edge angle it´s impossible to hold that hand sharpening all those knives. Thank you for buying and using our knives,

Mike
 
ghostguy6 said:
If you go into the Busse Combat Knives part or the forum there is an eecellent how to thread about putting a convex edge onto a blade. It might be worth a look.
The only RAT knife I have is a RAT 7 in D2 and it peforms much better now that I put a convex edge on it.
Click to expand...

Can you add a link to that thread as I don't have the search funtion now !!!:(
 
Snow said:
Looks like some good customer service in this thread. Makes me glad I ordered a RAT-3.
Click to expand...


I'm glad I ordered one also. As I am glad it will be from the new batch. I just wish it would get here. I ordered 1-Oct.
 
I'm not sure when Ontario will start shipping again. They're trying to resolve some grinding problems.

Jeff
 
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