Ontario-Bagwell Bowie -- WOW!!!

C'mon, mps, you know you want it to be 420J2, like your Rambo III bowie. hehe.

The other thing is that with the exception of the Gambler, the other models are treading on the heels of the customs in price. I would expect quality to be very high for the price and would accept no less than the highest quality in a production knife at this price level.
 
Gambler seems real good, but at least when looked from a picture it seems that the tip of the blade is below the handle's center line. Is there some reason for that? At least Col. Applegate has said that a fighting knife's optimal tip level is in the center for better control. Are the design principles of Bagwell fighters based on different fighting techniques? Ossi
 
In what situations - today and not 150 years ago - would a sober person with a big knife be fighting another guy with a big knife? Or is a Helles Belle as much an anachronism as a fine reproduction Viking sword? Todays fashions in "combat knives" from a "Kabar" to a Busse or a Mad Dog seem to run to big working knives that can also do damage if everything has just gone wrong.

If I'm going to carry a weapon with as high a profile as a big Bowie knife, I'll carry a gun. At least I think that's why the cap & ball revolver displaced the big Bowie knife for belt carry later on in the 19th century.

On the other hand, the Gambler looks to me like a nice period piece that would do a much neater job of slicing the Thanksgiving turkey than anything from Sam Colt could do. So if I get one I'll insist on doing mundane chores with it, to justify its existence. I hope the steel, whatever it is, performs as well, for doing work or damage, as the carbon steel in a "Kabar knife."


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
 
James, its mainly I would assume a question of legality. Its the same reason why a lot of people carry large folders over fixed blades.

In reference to your comments about large "combat knives", many makers, including Mad Dog, make knives that are pure fighters (Mad Dog's Panther, Black Cloud fighting Bowies). So while there are a lot of multiple purposes pieces, there is still a decent market for pure fightin knives with fairly long blade lengths.

-Cliff
 
James, you live near me and I can tell you that if you try to carry a loaded gun in public, you will be living with Bubba for a couple of days at best and maybe more. A big knife exposed is still legal in most areas of CA and can be carried without the worry of going to club fed. This is the reason for the big fighter bowies and tanto's etc. You will look like a fool maybe but it is legal.

Of course a folder is better hidden and easier to carry and you don't look so much like a psycho with a big knife on your side.
 
The Hell's Belle *ought* to be an anachronism. James is right that the odds of someone with one having to fight against another fighting knife are statistically insignificant. But I live in a state with "shall issue" ccw's. James and Cobalt and Jim March don't.

Having said that, the predators get enraged when a lower life form ( prey ) refuses to play by the rules and submit, but steer clear of those who can and will hurt them, and whacko's who can't be predicted. Wearing a large, obviously dedicated anti-personnel blade openly is not my choice, but would make a pretty clear statement. But then too, I live in a small enough town to know who the two or three potential Charlie Mansons and Jeffrey Dahmers around are. ( And they know that I can go home and be back before I have a chance to cool down ).

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 13 April 1999).]
 
There is that standard laundry list of reasons why a defensive knife nearly the tactical equal of a handgun (never runs out of ammo, your kids won't shoot themselves, simpler to use, etc.), and then there are those misfits who simply like big fighting knives and spend hours practicing with them for virtually no other reason. Swords for defense anyone? >
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Steve H., my little Mazda p/u won't take the two hander behind the seat without the guard showing in the rear window. Besides, do you have ANY IDEA how long it takes to sharpen ONE 45" edge let alone both of 'em? I gotta get my battleaxe rehandled - very big grin, but it's true - making do til then with the five flanged mace.

(( God I love having people crazier than me on the forum! ))

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 13 April 1999).]
 
Guys -- thank you very much for the info.

I have no beef against a modified 440C as the Ontrio Bagwells are pure fighting bowies, and I appreciate Ontario for being honest enough to admit it.

The Gambler is, technically, not a Helle's Belle (spanish for Hell's Lady?). Ontario has three other models that are Helle's Belle like. Main differences are longer blade, devil's horn as guards and Spanish notch on blade.

I guess one of the reason Ontario Helle's Belles are approaching custom knives' price is because Ontario pays royalty to Bill Bagwell?

Maybe an economical alternative is the Ontario Frontiersman's Bowie (model ??) that James Mattis said he has "in transit", or the Ontario Marine Raider Bowie (SP10) for $50.

ON-SP10.jpg


Lastly, I hope Ontario will update their site www.ontarioknife.com , and so does Mr. Bagwell www.bagwellknives.com .

Cobalt: I hope slaving for a week for the missus is worth the Ontario Bagwell
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[This message has been edited by Titan (edited 14 April 1999).]
 
Titan, what she calls slaving, I call enjoyment, hehe.

Ok, what is the Ontario Frontiersman? Looks, size, heft, width, model number, is there a sight to see it at?
 
I got a call from Bill Bagwell this morning. His computer is, for the time being, web-access-challenged, but he has a fair amount to say about issues brought up in this thread, and I'll be talking to him more and taking notes, after I come up for air from tax stuff, 4/16 or so.

He does say that he doesn't know what's in Ontario's proprietary stainless any more than the rest of us, but he says that it holds a good edge in his tests, and he has one hell of a time trying to break it, and that's good enough for him. Next time I talk to him and I'm not trying to break loose and head for the office, I'll have to explain that we mutter and murmer about anybody's "mystery steel" (Carbon 5, Infi, Puma, or Henckel's Friodur!) and it's no reflection on Ontario or him in particular. One difference between the custom knife crowd and the factories is that factories, especially old-line factories, have trade secrets.

And he has a lot to say for the virtues, in the present day, of carrying a concealed Bowie knife that, in the gravest extreme, does awesome damage on the backstroke, God forbid.

More in a few days . . .


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
 
Hey Cobalt the Frontiersman Qn-sp18 is all black with Zytel handle with about a 10 or 11 in. blade high carbon I beleive. It has a thin blade and is lite in the hand, It's not pretty like the Hells Bells but it is a whole lot less money, Chris.
Top of Texas Knives
www.toptexknives.com

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I haven't had a chance to handle either yet, but I've heard that the Frontiersman's blade is ground from thinner stock than the Helles Belle, and of course the handle is completely different. And it's not Zytel, but soft-grip Kraton type stuff, so don't even think about it as a "blade catcher."

The Helles Belle is Bill Bagwell's idea of the ideal purpose-built edged weapon, while the Frontiersman is yet another choice in Ontario's extensive line of working class knives, some of which are pretty big.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
 
Are the Helle's Belle's available yet? I can't seem to find a dealer that stocks them. The Knife Center has the Gambler but that's it.
 
My understanding is that the Gambler is OKC's production version of Bagwell's Hell's Belle.

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Ciao

Mike Melone
memelone@yahoo.com
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796

 
MM you got it wrong,

Ontario KC produces a replica of Bagwell's Hell's Belle under the same name.

The Gambler is a smaller fighting bowie made by OKC, also designed by Bagwell.
 
Chris, you got a picture of the frontier bowie? If so can you scan it and email it to me or post it on this site? I would love to see it.
 
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