Ontario/Hossom Retributiob folders

You simply cannot imagine how uncomfortable this knife would be in your pants pocket. Even the smaller one is 1" thick, a bit larger than a roll of quarters.

I applaud the efforts to want to put a clip on these knives, but I think it's a bad idea. Even a small clip about the width of a finger on the butt end of the knife would eat into the rear of your grip. If you insist on a clip I would suggest removing the sculpted handle slabs that come with the knife and make your own slab-sided grips which would make it dead easy to do a clip for it. (Don't throw away the old grips before you're done though.)

IMO, if you really must have a knife with a clip you shouldn't buy one of these knives. They are really not what you imagine a pocket knife should be.
 
brownshoe said:
Clips are always compromise to the best handle design.
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It is kind of illogical to take that extreme of an approach (no compromise) when a folding knife is inherently an inferior compromise already on pretty much every aspect of knife design including the handle. See a lot of fixed blades with a big groove cut out of the underside?

There is also no need to put a straight slab on a handle to have a clip, there is no reason why a clip can't shape to the handle which could also be recessed into the handle if desired. There are lots of folders with clips with print little in hand, and the implementation is improving.

Personally, I don't understand the need to put a clip on every knife.
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Generally if you can carry them without clips you could be carrying a fixed blade which is directly superior in many ways. Aside from the small ones that you just let ride in the pocket and speaking of the ones you have to carry in a belt sheath or similar.

-Cliff
 
Mr. Stamp, I respectfully disagree with the need for a clip. I use them, but always see it as a compromise in handle ergonomics, you just can't hide a piece of steel in the palm of your hand as you grip and use a blade multiple times. For most EDC applications, clips aren't noticed, but that doesn't mean it makes a better handle, although it may be a better all around knife.

As far as the need for clips, I routinely carry 5" folding knives (toothpick, Puma General, balisong) in a dress pants pocket w/o problem. I don't need a clip. Of all the knives I own, when the clip is removed the handle is more comfortable. That doesn't mean I leave the clip off, because the convenience factor sometims outweighs the handle ergonomics. My most comfortable knife with a clip is a cold steel voyager with the integral handle/clip. The clip is molded into the handle and almost disappears in the palm. That's why I dig my garden with it.

When I have an expensive custom folder, I buy em w/o clips, becuase it makes a better and prettier knife. I use a sheath clipped to my pocket ala William Henry. You get the convenience of the clip, and the great handle of the clipless blade.

As to using a belt sheath, a folder in an enclosed sheath looks like a variety of things and doesn't scream "BLADE" like a fixed blade in a sheath. I even carry small fixed blades (<6") in a pocket sheath for that reason. I routinely carry my BM42 in a horozontal sheath and its a lot easier than a fixed blade of the same size (i.e. 10" overall).
 
brownshoe said:
I use them, but always see it as a compromise in handle ergonomics, you just can't hide a piece of steel in the palm of your hand as you grip and use a blade multiple times.
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I would agree it generally reduces ergonomics, I have yet to see a design which improved the grip, asides from Gunting which used the clip for manipulating the blade in hand. However it isn't unreasonable to see they could, for example the clip could form a guard on the front on the mount position and increase security. No one does this that I have seen, but I am sure STR could do it trivially and this would in fact add to the handle in some ways.

Many people just tend to slap on clips and leave them square, I have seen some some bad that on a hard thrust it actually cut pieces out of my hand. The new wire frame ones that Spyderco uses though are really nice. There are no square contact points. The D'Allara has them and it is contoured. If I squeeze it hard I feel the cutout for the blade in the handle much more significant than the clip, which is also recessed into the handle in the mount.

As far as the need for clips, I routinely carry 5" folding knives (toothpick, Puma General, balisong) in a dress pants pocket w/o problem.
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I carry Rucksack pretty much the same way and a U2 frequently. I don't see a need for them on smaller blades much at all. Though some just don't like thing jingling around deep in the pocket.

As to using a belt sheath, a folder in an enclosed sheath looks like a variety of things and doesn't scream "BLADE" like a fixed blade in a sheath.
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There is that, especially considering current laws which are getting more restrictive and even if it isn't against the law do you really want to be constantly having to fight to prove you are not breaking one. They (folders) are also in general less "hostile" to use locally anyway, though it depends on the knife of course and this probably isn't much of consideration for tactical knives in general considering how they are usually hyped.

-Cliff
 
I see both sides here but again a knife that comes with a clip is set up so you can simply remove it. I never understood not offering it to the public and letting them decide if they want to use it clipless or not. Plug the holes with matching screws and still get all the benefits of one that didn't sport one in the first place if you just want it to be more attractive..

I can just tell you based on the contacts I've had already on these knives that there are going to be guys carrying them with clips whether made by me or not I see that in the future and probably adapted to the existing handles. There are guys carrying the full size Cold Steel Voyagers and Vaqueros that are 13.25 " long open. They carry these in their jeans pockets. These old ones didn't come with a clip. These are monster size knives and thats just one example. I have guys carrying Cuda Max knives with low riders on them because I couldn't talk them out of it. I don't think the size of these knives will stop someone from clipping them guys.

Also, just my observations on marketing and where a knife fits in my own view: my reason for carrying a one hand opening lock back or other style locking 'modern' knife is for the convenience of being able to get it out, open it, use it and shut it with as little time or effort as needed to do the job and be done with it. I carry a SAK in my left pocket all the time and although it has a very sharp blade on it I rarely use it. I carry it for the pliers, and the scissors, nail file and bottle opener. If I had another knife requiring two hands to pull it out of its pocket sheath and two hands to open it I can't personally see the reason to even carry it since it would be redundant and I already have one in my other pocket and another on my hip in my Swiss tool multi tool.

I know from hanging here that I am not alone in carrying more than one folder on me most of the time and most always each knife you carry has its own niche that fits your personal style because it works for you in a way that the other you carry can't. Not always but mostly this is the case. To me selling a one hand opener like this knife is putting it out there as one of the other convenient users available to the public but sticking it in a sheath or not equipping it with a clip seems to be going against convenience and against the direction already started by the opening hole and to a large part against 'tactical' also in my own mind although I know some would disagree.

In my mind when I look at a knife like this Retribution folder the lack of the clip but a sheath instead sets it as a competitor in my mind to my multi tool and not my other one hand opening knife. It needs the clip on it to even be considered for purchase because bumping my Swiss tool off my belt is something no other tool or knife has been able to pull off just yet and replacing my pistol with it is out of the question. :D



STR
 
I get the feeling that nobody reads what I post here. :D

Even if it had a clip you would still have a complaint that it's not comfortable to carry something that bulky in your front pants pocket, and I agree.

Don't use examples of knives (any size) that have relatively flat sides to show the merits of a clip and compare them with this knife that has very contoured sides and is not supposed to have one. These are pants pocket unfriendly knives and are definitely not for everybody. Feedback from the field however has been pretty favorable. Jacket and cargo pockets are where most are ending up.

I do have a different, clip friendly design about ready to go though.
 
STR said:
I see both sides here but again a knife that comes with a clip is set up so you can simply remove it. I never understood not offering it to the public and letting them decide if they want to use it clipless or not.
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It gives it a strong promotional aspect, anything which is different gives this ability.

There are guys carrying the full size Cold Steel Voyagers and Vaqueros that are 13.25 " long open. They carry these in their jeans pockets.
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The ER folders come with clips and they are massively thick, construction workers even carry screwdrivers in their back pockets all the time, not to mention things like a big ball of keys, etc. .

It needs the clip on it to even be considered for purchase because bumping my Swiss tool off my belt is something no other tool or knife has been able to pull off just yet and replacing my pistol with it is out of the question.
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Yeah but you are not in the "sandbox" dude and generally "tacticals" are rarely promoted for use by regular guys just "operators", who ironically enough actually cite multi-tools as one of the common knives carried when asked on the forums. I don't have much use for multi-tools, being more rural than urban, but do like a decent SAK with saw, file, chisel, blade, etc. . I never carried one big enough for a pouch though, handled a few but they were really awkward.

-Cliff
 
Jerry Hossom said:
I get the feeling that nobody reads what I post here.
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I'm sorry if you felt my post was in any way disrespectful. I truly appreciate fine knifemakers such as yourself taking the time to help us out. :thumbup:
 
No problem, WM. I understand the mind set that says every folder needs a clip. The issue is that very few folders are like this one' it just doesn't follow the rules (like me I guess). :D
 
Hi Jerry. I'll be your buddy and listen to you:D :D :D ................but I may still see if I can fit a clip to the knife:eek: :foot: :)

For me, I've just gotten so used to carrying a knife with a clip that I don't know if I'll like using a sheath, but I'll say that this knife sure does warrant the effort. I'm also wondering if the Lone Wolf Harsey Tactical knife sheath would be a good fit for the Retribution I? The knives are very close to the same closed length, although I imagine the Retribution will be thicker in the handle. Just something for me to ponder on.
 
This is the best super heavy duty folder ever made.
As Jerry said, not for everyone, but they can replace a fixed blade.
 
In my experience the Camillus Heat didn't clip well. The best I can describe it is as if felt as it had too much "density".

For folders in the 4 inches blade and up category, the handle would be >5.25 inches. On those sizes I would prefer tip down as then the clip is not digging in your palms and instead your index finger can ride the groove of the clip (inward curving part).
 
This thread reminds me of the 1970's "biker's drop" method of carrying a large folder shown to me by a NYPD officer. You take your standard Buck 110, Puma General, etc. and you get it loose enough to open with the thumb on the blade. You carry it on your hip in a leather pouch that is upside down. When needed you thumb open the pouch, the knife quietly slips into your hand and you thumb it open. All the advantages of a pocket clip and thumbstud but none of the disadvantages.
 
Walking Man said:
That's saying a lot!
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It doesn't say anything it is undefined because no comparisons are made. Which knives is it superior to specifically and in what manner. Is the lock actually stronger and more secure than Reeve's integral. Is is actually more secure under twisting than the lockback on the Manix? Is the blade stronger than the 3/16" Striders or 1/4" sabre ground ER. Does the stainless steel blade actually last longer during heavy duty cutting of abrasive materials as the M2's from Benchmades. Can it handle very heavy prying flexing and extreme impacts like the MPF in Beta-Ti? Then there are bunch of high end customs like R. J. Martin's etc., is it really superior to all of them as well? it will be interesting to see comments on strength/security of the liner lock, I would like to see Joe and Steve's perspective on a few random samples. STR could comment on this as well after moding a few as he has worked with a lot of that lock type.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It doesn't say anything it is undefined because no comparisons are made.
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Cliff, you are just too danged literal. You really ought to lighten up. Take after one of your favorite knifemakers, Jerry Busse, and drink a little booze one in a while. Or more often. :thumbup:
 
I would like to get the smaller version myself, at least at first. I will probably end up with both.
 
Simply stated - the knife is designed without a pocket clip - the designer, Jerry Hossom, as stated as much at least 3 times in this thread.

It is very similar to the KaBar Mule Folding Field Knives - They were not designed as pocket knives; were not designed to have a pocket clip; but were designed to be carried an a belt sheath.

Some folders are not "pocket knives".

Just like the "Mule", there is a market for this style & size knife, and will be a success with serious outdoorsmen, members of the military, SAR units, and by others who find it more expedious to substitute a folder for a fixed blade
 
theoldawg said:
Simply stated - the knife is designed without a pocket clip - the designer, Jerry Hossom, as stated as much at least 3 times in this thread.

It is very similar to the KaBar Mule Folding Field Knives - They were not designed as pocket knives; were not designed to have a pocket clip; but were designed to be carried an a belt sheath.

Some folders are not "pocket knives".

Just like the "Mule", there is a market for this style & size knife, and will be a success with serious outdoorsmen, members of the military, SAR units, and by others who find it more expedious to substitute a folder for a fixed blade
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:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :D ;)
Scott
 
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