Ontario/rat

C

coaldigger

Joined
Jan 27, 2007
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Please don't FLAME me for asking this question:o But I have been thinking about this for a while.....When RAT was with Ontario, RAT Knives were "IT" the knife to have in a survival situation ! Now...ESEE (Rat/Rowen) knives are "IT" the knife to have ! Far Superior than the Ontario RAT's :confused: My question is if RAT & Ontario were still together...wouldn't the Ontario RATs still be #1 :rolleyes: What I'm asking is the knives Ontario are still producing are still the same RAT's Jeff & Mike & all of us stood behind for years & depended on so now that Jeff & Mike are not in the picture everyone acts like these are Cheap knock offs :confused I don't support Ontario & I'm not a FanBoy....I do own a Ontario RAT3 in D2 & it seems to be a good knife.
I have had 2 RAT7's & one TAK All were great knives (IMO) are these knives Junk ? the only RC knife I own is the Izula (Sweet knife) Im wanting an RC6 just haven't got to it yet :D
Sorry if I have rubbed anyone the wrong way:o
 
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no problem buddy, I've got the rat 7, and I've got the rc 3,4, izula, and esee 5 now....I think that ontario was heading in another direction than what ESEE was wanting to go.....I might be wrong....somebody can correct me no problem....I'd like to get an ontario 5 just to have one from them, but I do love them machete's.....
 
Ontario's fit and finish may be sub par, but you can't knock em for being a workingman's knife. Just because ESEE blades look like they belong in a Vanity Fair magazine doesn't mean their usefulness is necessarily a 'new thing'. Obviously Rowen does a spectacular job at manufacturing these things, I'm just saying... the wheel wasn't reinvented here.
 
I will agree 100% that the Fit & Finish of the ESEE knives are alot better but what about Function...:confused: & I know that ESEE's Warranty is the best in the business !
 
Yeap. Heaven forbid you may have had to use your head about technique, care, maintenance and use of your tools before an unquestionable warranty :D I know the Air Force SERE manual stresses technique a TON especially when it comes to improvised tools. It doesn't mean those tools aren't capable, just that you need to be conscious about things that could potentially cause them to fail. Heaven forbid there's a knot in the middle of your limb... you may have to move your knife to the side of it in order to split the thing...
 
I don't think anyone really shuns Ontario. One of the big reasons I prefer the newer knives is the improvements to sheathing. Rowen's heat treat is also outstanding.

I think that RAT/ESEE has continued to develop quickly and in direct response to their customers. A smaller more flexible setup is good for this. Ontario is large, they deal in volume, not so much with change. They're relatively local to me, and so I do like the local economy aspect. But they really haven't changed anything with the knives or line.

I've got an RTAK II I'm very happy with. It's a great knife. But it's been covered and talked about to death, so I'm more likely to post something about the junglas...
 
No flaming here.
Ontario made RATs were the thing when they were the only game in town.
Then the growing pains happened and Ontario had a few issues with QC (which can happen to any big manufacturer). When the contract period ended, it was not renewed by RAT.
They then built a working relationship with Rowen, and have been doing nothing but grow since.
The confusion between Ontario RAT knives, Swamprat knives and RAT RC knives prompted the name change at BLADE to ESEE. (RAT is still the parent company)

Most of the Ontartio RATs were/are fine. There were some issues with heat treat on a batch or 2 that made it past QC, and cost them some significant image problems. (or so I've heard) I personally love my TAK.

The big difference between the 2 makers can be summed up as the difference between GMC & Caddy. Same truck, different level of fit and finish - largely due to volume produced. For every caddy, 5 GMCs are built. Same with the "O" knives - higher volume production means smaller %age in the QC test pool and slightly wider tolerances.
(this also explains part of the price difference - smaller batches hand finished = higher production costs & higher final cost -- just like a caddy escalade costs more than a suburban)
make sense?
 
hi, the ontario's are fine knives, i've got several and used them alot. now that said i like the esee's better for a couple of reasons. primarily is the sheath and accessories. they just have a ton more options. the second is there is a larger variety of blades now.

both good knives, esee's are nicer, but i use them not worried about a beauty contest.

take it easy
cricket
 
I'd say that the quality isn't up to par with rowen, but ontario, especially the rat 3, 5, and 7 are dependable knives, I'd like to see what Jeff and Mike's personal thought's are on this, would they keep using an ontario or do they still????
 
I liked the hell out of my RAT-7.

Only real problem I had with it is the point basically doesn't exist (no distal taper).

Sure, the sheath is cheap, but it worked, finish wasn't as durable, but the fit happens to be perfect on mine.

To me, Ontario has always been the "If you really need a good knife, but really must pay the least amount possible" company. That hasn't changed.

I just think the RAT guys went with someone who would make the knives they way they really wanted them, and the increase in quality of finish, heat treat (you will not bend an Ontario as far as you can an ESEE) and especially the sheathing are well worth the price increase, IMO.
 
The Ontario RAT knives are great tools. Always were. The FnF on the ESEE stuff is better, the Rowen heat treat is like magic and the sheathing is more flexable. The ESEE-3 has a bit more handle than the RAT-3 and finally, the warranty on the ESEE stuff is unbeatable.

Not knocking the Ontario stuff, just stating the facts.
 
Two things here. First off, The Ontario made knives are great tools. Before Jeff and crew started working with Rowen, he was working with Ontario. Now if you read some of the posts by Jeff and Mike, they have a zero BS tolerance level, so if Ontario was making junk.... well it would not have been a good 5 year relationship that they had. I love my TAK, I have a couple of them, and a RAT-3 as well as the RC built RATs. To me it simply comes down to fit and finish. Rowen puts a little more time into the build of each knife.

But honestly, both are decent quality "user" knives. Ontario's you use, beat the hell out of, love it til it breaks, then you toss it and get another. ESEE, you do the same, but instead of tossing it, you send it to ESEE and they replace it. Don't try that with Ontario, their customer service folks.... well lets just say that I haven't had good luck with that.

Anyways, there is nothing wrong with your Ontario blades, use them, enjoy them. I have a bunch of RC blades, and I love the RC-3/ESEE 3, it is my "go to" knife of the RC line (well other then the Izula... and maybe the ESEE 4... ummm :) ) But has any of them replaced my TAK? Nope, and I don't think that will happen anytime soon. Don't worry so much about the brand, but more if the blade does what you need.
 
Again, Ontario makes a good product and have been around for many years. We have no animosity towards Ontario and still use some of their product on ocassion, as we do a lot of knife companies. In fact, I just had an article published in Tactical Knives suggesting Ontario's product. Bottom line, if anyone believes that ESEE or anyone else's knives are "it" when it comes to survival is fooling themselves terribly. The closest thing to "it" that I can think of is a 15 dollar Imacasa machete when it comes to survival. As for ESEE, we simply do our best to make a good knife at a decent price and back it with the best warranty and customer service in the industry, but if you think you can "survive" better because you have an ESEE knife, then you probably don't need to be in the woods, or carrying a knife to begin with. Not sure why this is a recurring topic, especially when we have never made any claims to superiority in the knife industry.
 
Thanks for the info. Guy's ....I never said that ESEE claimed to be better than Ontario, Just doing some thinking & wanted to ask the question:thumbup: You guy's have answered my question & I thank you;)
Now to save up for a ESEE - 5 or 6 :D
Thanks again
 
the ESEE6 is very similar to the RAT7 you had, the ESEE5 is shaped a lot like the RAT5 only on steroids. (1/4" thick and saber grind rather than 3/16" thick FFG)
I'm a very happy camper with my ESEE6.
 
Sorry to be tardy to the party. But here's my worthless .02:

I love my old RAT7. O-RAT's are fine knives. The difference for me, though, is largely in the way Rowen treats the steel. It's far superior to Ontario's heat treatment. As well, the warranty is far and away the best I've seen.
 
I own products from both ESEE and Ontario. Like others have stated, ESEE has the edge when it comes to fit and finish. Their grinds are clean and symmetrical, the coating is durable, the micarta scales fit flush with the tang, and so forth.
Ontario puts out some great knives at the price too, only thing is that their fit and finish isnt as good as ESEE. But make no mistake, their knives can slice, gut, skin, chop and cut just as well as the rest.

And heres another :thumbup: for the TAK. I absolutely LOVE mine :D

Dizwolf said:
I don't think anyone really shuns Ontario.
Click to expand...

The die-hard fanboys do exactly that, even though they most likely havent used an Ontario in the woods.
 
The Ontario RAT knives are good designs and hard use knives.

The ESEE knives are similar good designs, also hard use knives with better overall finish and attention to detail, better warranty and better service. You pay a little more for it, but to me and most of us here, it's worth it.

No one is saying the Ontario RATs aren't good knives. The ESEEs are slightly more expensive and offer a few more extras.

Nothing pisses me off like being told I'm a fanboy or part of a "cult". I hear the same thing about shooting Glocks from non-Glock people. If they weren't good products and I STILL paid good money for them, I would be a fanboy. Since they're reliable, hard use tools backed by great customer service at prices people can afford, that's why I buy them. There is a difference between hype and having a loyal customer following. Jeff, start making crappy products and I"ll quit buying them. I just don't see it in the cards though. ;)
 
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