Ontario RTAK : just some comments on design

Cliff Stamp

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Got an RTAK and there are a couple of points which stand out as problematic :

1) The handle is really squarish on top, nicely rounded on the bottom and the center swell isn't as heaviyl curved as it was on Newts version which I found so uncomfortable I chopped it off, however on the top it is uncomfortable even in a tight grip.

2) There is little to no guard, and the rear end hook is also fairly slight, so the grip retention could be problematic in extreme situations, plus heavy stabbing is a concern.

3) The initial sharpness is very low, no shaving ability, can slice paper in some regions not in others, does not cut light vegetation well. For cheap machetes this is ok, but for something costing 10x what a cheap machete does, it is kind of off that it needs to be honed right out of the box.

4) Along those lines, the sharpening isn't going to be trivial either as the grinds are uneven, and the edge not finished honed, just left with a rough belt finish so it is burred and left rairly ragged, so it isn't a matter of a few touchups and off you go.

5) After measuring the edge it is also obvious why this knife suffered blowouts. This one dips down to under 0.015" thick behind the edge. On a knife this size and weight, that seems to me to be far too thin for wood work. Grasses fine, but take that to a knot and you are just asking for trouble. I just ordered a custom bowie made out of a high end steel with a 12" blade and I went to 0.025" to be safe, maybe 0.020" as a practical limit, but certainly not under, and certainly on a production knife.

On the positive :

1) The blade length is a real 10", by this I mean no ten inches to the grip or including the guard, actual ten inches of sharpened edge.

2) The grip is really long, almost a hand and a half length. This allows you to move back for more power as well as ahead for a lighter grip for precison work. The balance is right ahead of the handle on the blade, so in a regular full grip the knife is just slightly blade heavy.

3) It has a full flat grind profile on wide stock (2"), and thin steel (3/16") so the cutting ability should be high (possible concern noted in the above).

4) The tip swedge has its + & -'s though, its not sharpened so it won't be that much of a drawback on baton work, however it does leave the tip fairly thin, heavy wood work with this pryign wise is out of the question. The tip would not stand up to later work in woods, however it would go into woods (and anything else) *much* easier than something with a stronger tip.

The sheath is prety standard low end production, synthetic over a rigid backing. Stitching is a bit frayed in places, but looks solid. Low ride rigging, plut other attachment points, no drainage hole, but a utility pouch.

-Cliff
 
My RTAK performed just dandy during some intense testing I put it through :) Even gave it a few throws into a tree stump. Didn't break or bend the tip at all. Just stuck and when pried out sideways,it took chunks of wood out :D Sure it is bad form to push a knife like that but I wanted to satisfy myself when I heard some folks describing the RTAK as being weak. I chopped hard woods and soft wood with no problems at all other than running out of available poles. Of course the RTAK is designed to be closer to a machete than a heavy chopper so I wouldn't expect it to be used as a crowbar. When I did my testing it was raining pretty hard out here. I experianced no slipping of my grip with the factory handle shape. The foward portion of the handle was more than adequate for keeping the hand on the grip during stabs into a stump. Also the grip didn't shift around when chopping.Even when chopping the harder stuff, it was comfortable and secure. The light weight for it's size was nice too since no fatigue was felt throughout a couple hours of cutting and chopping.I think Ontario did a great job delivering the RTAK to market giving a heck of a deal in performance for the $$$ and it even comes with a nice sheath. Sure it isn't for everybody(what blade is) but it would surely serve an owner well.
 
I bought one about 2 years ago and now hardly use it. I was chopping some small sucker branches around the base of a maple tree and after chooping several, I noticed the blade edge had a bent or deformed spot in it. I now only use it to cut or chop down grass for feeding animals. The sheath is crap. I wish I had spent the money on the BK9 instead. Less money for (as I see it) a better knife. I find the handle to be too square feeling. It does take a very sharp edge though.

Dave
 
I have carried and used my RTAK since the day Ontario unveiled them and have experienced zero prob's with it.I have whacked,chopped ,dropped,left in the rain for days at a time and still it performed.The thin edge is perfect for briars and sapling chopping and the best part is the handle which has no pinky biter for extended chopping.In my experience it chops better than thicker blades taking a deeper bite each chop.As for edge deformation I have had no prob's except for the occasional rock in the dirt,I had a BK9 's edge deform really bad however on an oak palat I was removing.My RTAK just rocks imho :cool: I dont know why Ontario gets such a bad rap,I have had good experiences with my Ontario blades,after all if the military approves them they have to meet some criteria I guess?
 
marsupial said:
I dont know why Ontario gets such a bad rap

Because the variance is so high. When you grinds edges this thin, ~0.020 you have to be very tight with the deviations, if you dip down at all the edge will warp readily on woods like Dave's did. Combine this with Ontario's hit and miss on the heat treat and it adds up to serious potential for problems. This doesn't mean you can't get a good one of course. At around 0.025" with a quality 55 HRC, 1095 should make an extremely tough edge.

... after all if the military approves them they have to meet some criteria I guess?

Yeah, be the cheapest.

I took this one out for some wood work, as expected the blade is really too thin for heavy wood work. On splitting woods (3-4", nothing serious) it actually bent in the wood (through the main blade body) so it has very little splitting ability with a baton as it wedges badly compared to a stiffer knife which will stay straight and thus exert more force driving the wood apart.

In addition the sedge on the tip causes a lots of wasted energy as it keeps cutting into the baton (including gettnig stuck if you hit too far out on the tip), this is energy which would be better directed into the wood, of course the thinner tip does increase penetration. The vibrations in the hand were high as well and combined with the square grip it got uncomfortable fast.

I constrained the knot cutting to the thicker parts of the edge, and they held up fine, which isn't surprising given the relatively obtuse angle. Even Ti can cut knots at this angle.

I sharpened up the edge which took some time as it was heavily ground and when it was rough honed it took a visible burr you could see and feel. This was gruond off and the blade raised up to a fine polish, which didn't take too long as 1095 at ~ 55 HRC is easy to grind. It could then readily cut grasses and such. But so will any knife properly sharpened. With a forward grip my SH Battle Mistress has similar fatigue rates and is a much more powerful chopper and works much better at batoning, splitting, heavy wood work etc. .

The RTAK though does a lot of camp type work better, food prep and misc. cutting. It doesn't out cut the SHBM, however in general is easier to use as its lighter and more neutral in balance. Personally I would rather have something more rigid as its mainly wood vegetation around here, but I can see where something like this would be more optimal for mainly softer vegetation - though then you could just use a machete. I should pick up a similar sized Martindale and do a direct comparison, essentially the RTAK shuold have an advantage in being able to work on harder woods with less vibration and less binding, plus be stiffer for prying work.

I tried a few stabs, no problem holding onto the grip with no lubricant, but I can see now why Newt redesigned the guard. There is no way to keep a grip on this if the handle gets comtainimated, there is virtually no guard - in general machetes don't tend to have them, but you don't do a lot of point thrusting with machetes anyway. You can always use a laynard to keep the blade from slipping too far forward.

-Cliff
 
I finally got this out for an extended cutting session this weekend, mainly on wood seasoned 1-2 years, a mixture of pine, fir and spruce. The RTAK had solid penetration, though bound heavily in the wood. It chopped at about 67 +/- 7% of the ability of the GB Wildlife Hatchet, through a few dozen sections of wood.

However when I tried to work around a few knots, the blade bound heavily, as it it was stuck so bad it had to be struck on the handle to free it. The edge also dented severely, the dent was about 1/4" back on the blade with the steel ~0.040" thick at the back.

I then spent some time clipping off branch stubs and the edge rippled all along the edge with each few impacts. The actual whole edge would deform to the side, it is just too thin for harder woods.

The point was then inserted 1/4" into a piece of spruce which it cleared readily, but on a 1/2" the tip just bent to the side and would not clear the wood. The blade was inserted half way into a log and walked on (150 lbs) and the it just bent, could not support the weight and took a permanent set.

The impact toughness was high though, it took a dozen full strength impacts from a framing hammer with no problems. The squarish top of the handle proved to be a problem, during most of the above as it was abrasive.

So high level of cutting ability due to the very thin edge, low initial sharpness, but easy to sharpen, lot tip and blade strength and the edge rippled readily on knots and limb stubs.

-Cliff
 
Nice job Cliff!

I was really looking forward to getting one of those up until recently. However, I think I will stick to a standard machete - or go with the Martindale.

Currently I have a 12" Ontario 'Bowie style' short machete I picked up for about $20 from knifecenter a couple of years ago - the D-guard handle was a bit uncomfortable before I modified it but with the creative application of some paracord & duct tape, I have a very serviceable Bowie / Machete hybrid that would fit the catagory as well or better than the ATAK from what I've read so far... At least if it breaks I didn't spend $100 on it! :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, I feel much the same way. If you want a light machete get one for ~10$, if you want a decent wood working knife then the Camp Tramp or Battle Rat are much more suitable. The RTAK could be decent enough, but you simply can't run the edge that thin. It would make a nice limbing knife if the edge was 0.025" at minimum, and with Ontario's hit and miss heat treat I would put the tolerance up to 0.030" at minimum to give a decent level of safety.

For thicker wood work, the blade is just too thin and it binds readily, but the tip will bend too easily. Newt commented on the tip issue when he made the Adventure Knife from the old RTAK design, noting that he saw tip breakages, and this was with a semi-custom small shop high quality heat treat, so high level production can't readily expect to get better. Depends on what you want in the knife of course. The tip had decent penetration, was 115 +/- 5 pages on a phonebook stab (50 lbs push). Its nice and slim so it goes into wood well.

Then again the Swamp Rat penetrator tip has a really high level of penetration as well and doesn't sacrifice any strength.

-Cliff
 
When you are measuring the thickness of the edge, where are you measuring? How far back? Do you put calipers on where the "edge grind" and "primary grind" form a shoulder? My terminology is probably wrong, but hopefully you know what I mean.

Thanks.
 
Edge thickness is measures right where the primary grind and edge meet just like you noted.

-Cliff
 
As an update, I gave this to my brother after I was finished with it. He straightened it in a vice and took a hammer to the edge and pounded it back into line and then reset the edge on the belt sander. He uses it now as a large machete, grub knife, and general large utility blade for dirty cutting, digging, that kind of work. He is happy with it aside from the squarish handle which he will eventually grind down. It is a nice general profile, I would not mind seeing something like this with a more sensible edge geometry, better QC and more ergonomic handle, it would make a nice large brush knife.

-Cliff
 
wow you do realy beat the ever lovin snot out of them dont you! the RATK that i got was not shaveing sharp out of the box but a little time with the stone its my kitchen kinve/cleaver. but also i use the beast in the woods and i am very happy. it works well for a dailey carry. you can never tell when you will need more knive then what you brought.
 
Interesting that Bill posted here because I compared my RTAK against a Busse BM-E he modifiied and I bought from him.

I spent a day with each knife chopping and limbing alder for my barbecue.

The Busse worked very well and maintained its sharpness throughout the exercise. Bill had thinned out the handle which I like, but after awhile the smaller grip tended to loosen in the hand which then required more pressure and this led to fatigue. The Siegle edge is symmetrical and thinner than the asymmetrical factory edge, and it did not tend to bind, and when the knife did, it was fairly easy to pull free.

The RTAK, on the other hand, lost some sharpness and tended to bind much easier on the thicker trunks and limbs than the Busse, which then required more energy to pull free. The RTAK sailed through the thinner limbs though, probably better than the Busse mainly because of its thinner blade/edge. I did not experience any edge roll or chips with the RTAK, but then alder is a fairly soft wood with few tight knots. The RTAK handle, while large and squarish, felt good in the hand and did not create the same level of fatigue I experienced with the modified Busse handle.

My RTAK came sharp out of the box, and fit and finish was fine, about what I would have expected. I would not stab and twist my RTAK out of wood without expecting it too bend to some degree. It is designed to more like a machete than a true wood chopper.
 
I have used the 1095 Ontario machetes, they are actually stronger than the RTAK, you can do a lot of heavy work with them before they will take a set. After the edge blew out on mine I broke them intentionally, it was not nearly as easy as it was with the RTAK. With a 3/16" blade you should get more wood working ability, if you have to stick with light vegetation then why not simply use the $10 machete. That being said, with a thicker edge and a better heat treat and more ergonomic handle, this blade would have a nice spot as an inbetween blade, not binding as heavily as a machete and being more functional as a baton, as a big knife and less vibration on really hard wood. I have been popping around the idea of a custom version for awhile now, but each time I get serious I hear rumors of decent production versions. The Blackjack Golok looks interesting in that regard.

-Cliff
 
Cliff - Yes, I have been thinking about buying one of those Blackjack Goloks for that very reason. Of course I have more money than sense, so I might just have Bill Siegle make me one of his small machetes. That just might be the ticket, and he'll make it a little thicker and out of 5160, which I happen to like. It's hard to beat Bill's stuff. :)
 
Cliff - I have several of Bill's knifes, but not one of his small machetes. There is an article in Tactical Knives about his machete though, and it has a picture and write up. You should check it out. Bill makes no nonsense knives ala Busse and they work.
 
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